danedit28 Posted September 24, 2012 Share #1 Posted September 24, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) As I understand it, the frame lines in the viewfinder on the new M are battery illuminated LED white with the option for red as a menu setting. That sounds nice but what about when the camera is in the off position? Are there still frame lines in the viewfinder or do they completely disappear when the power is gone? Thanks, -dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Hi danedit28, Take a look here Frame lines on new M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanJW Posted September 24, 2012 Share #2 Posted September 24, 2012 I believe that the answer is no. Camera needs to be on to illuminate the frame lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted September 24, 2012 Share #3 Posted September 24, 2012 Battery illuminated is the clue, when the camera is off the battery off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danedit28 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share #4 Posted September 24, 2012 My hope is that the frame lines are always there like on the M9 and that the battery serves merely to brighten them up when powered on. Otherwise that kind of kills the process of focusing and composing a shot while the camera is in standby or off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 24, 2012 Share #5 Posted September 24, 2012 The LED-illuminated frame lines are THE single thing making me doubtful about getting an "M." This was chi-chi "bling" in the M9Ti - and it still is. I'll have to wait and see the real deal - maybe there is enough "spill" light from the RF image to make the framelines faintly visible even when the camera is off. And yes, I explore the world through the framelines before switching on power. The Fuji X-Pro 1 has framelines that are only visible when the camera is switched on. If Leica wants to build a camera at the Fuji X-Pro level, that's OK - so long as they charge the Fuji X-Pro price... I have a sneaking suspicion, knowing how today's Leica does these things, that natural, full-time FL illumination via a window will make a magical reappearance in 18-24 months - in an "M.x" that adds $1,000 to the price. Bookmark this prediction.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 24, 2012 Share #6 Posted September 24, 2012 But, there's plenty of extra battery power in the new M, especially if one isn't using live view, so I think it would be a simple matter of keeping power on as soon as the camera is picked up for the day. I'll have to wait to see the lines to make a judgment, and I'll make my judgment based on when the lines are on, not off. But that's just me. I care more about deleting the preview lever, although that's not a major issue for me. Different strokes. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billib Posted September 24, 2012 Share #7 Posted September 24, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) adan I've never held an M9T. Do the Frame Lines disappear (for the most part) when the camera is switched OFF? If thats true I hope the M10 isn't the same. I'm not saying its a deal breaker but almost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 24, 2012 Share #8 Posted September 24, 2012 But, there's plenty of extra battery power in the new M, especially if one isn't using live view, so I think it would be a simple matter of keeping power on as soon as the camera is picked up for the day. I've never held an M9T. Do the Frame Lines disappear (for the most part)when the camera is switched OFF? Battery illuminated is the clue, when the camera is off the battery off. Well, when an electronic device is "off" - it isn't always "off." In digicams, there's always a little trickle charge running to keep the clock ticking. My Canon 5D "acknowledges" the installation of a battery with a blink of the LED even when "off" - so some part of it is still "on" enough to sense the battery being installed. My HDTV is dark when the power is "off" - but it still burns a red LED, and responds to an infrared "on" signal from my remote. Obviously the IR remote signal sensor is running full-time. Maybe there is a trickle charge to the frameline LED. If you know how small the frameline slits really are, and how compact the space they're in is, it would only take a microwatt or less to make them visible against the black mask. We'll just have to see what Leica did - or hear from someone who checked the real deal at photokina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billib Posted September 24, 2012 Share #9 Posted September 24, 2012 adan, I just assumed that with the M9Titanium it had Frame Lines that were always visible but weren't illuminated unless the camera was powered up or only maybe in low light where one would benefit from more vivible Frame Lines. Its funny, I've never learned to Chimp by looking at the LCD but I guess you could say I Chimp by looking through the Viewfinder to size up a potential image. I know its not the same thing but kinda' close. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 24, 2012 Share #10 Posted September 24, 2012 All the light that illuminates the frame lines in any M camera, M3 to M9 to M, comes from behind. Hitherto it has been light from the illumination window, redirected via a concave mirror. In the M, it still comes from behind the masks, but now entirely from a battery-driven LED array. Take your old M camera, and cover up the illumination window completely light-tight. Look through the finder. Do you see any framelines? You don't. Not even very faintly. They simply aren't there. In a M camera without the window and the mirror, where would the backlighting come from, unless the LEDs are lit? Case closed. Conclusion: You will not see any frame lines unless the camera is switched on (and, probably, awake). And this thread would not have existed if anybody had made this very simple experiment and carried through this very simple reasoning before posting. The old man from the Age of Reason (now a thing of the past) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted September 24, 2012 Share #11 Posted September 24, 2012 ........I have a sneaking suspicion, knowing how today's Leica does these things, that natural, full-time FL illumination via a window will make a magical reappearance in 18-24 months - in an "M.x" that adds $1,000 to the price. Bookmark this prediction.... Andy you could call it a Leica M-E and charge LESS for it.... oh wait Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schn€id€r Posted September 24, 2012 Share #12 Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks for the contributions. What I still don't understand: It can be read in other threads that there will be only one frame line visible, according to the lens on the body. But how does the camera distinguish between an uncoded 35mm lens and an uncoded 135mm lens? The mount is, to my understanding, the same (thus the dual sets of frame lines in the past)? Or does this mean that all older lenses have to be coded, if the camera is to recognize the right frame? Thanks and best wishes Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightwrangler Posted September 24, 2012 Share #13 Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks for the contributions. What I still don't understand: It can be read in other threads that there will be only one frame line visible, according to the lens on the body. This is wrong. The M shows framelines in pairs as did the M8 and M9 and most Ms before. Lens coding is therefore irrelevant for frameline selection. The only difference is the illumination method. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schn€id€r Posted September 24, 2012 Share #14 Posted September 24, 2012 Thanks a lot, this is reassuring. It was a passage from Thorsten Overgaards review that puzzled me ("The framelines are set by the lens and does not require 6-bit coding; same system as it always was before 6-bit came about. No manual selection of frame lines and you only see the actual frame lines for the actual lens, not two pairs." italics by me. leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Pages - (Leica M10 or) Leica M and Leica ME Digital Rangefinder Camera - First Impressions from Photokina) Best Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 24, 2012 Share #15 Posted September 24, 2012 I believe Thorsten to be mistaken in this regard. The frame lines are in pairs as per the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 24, 2012 Share #16 Posted September 24, 2012 There are quite a few errors in Thorstens reviews. He also says the frame lines are LCD (they're masks illuminated by LED). The Leica website should be a reliable source for the specs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 24, 2012 Share #17 Posted September 24, 2012 Maybe there is a trickle charge to the frameline LED. If you know how small the frameline slits really are, and how compact the space they're in is, it would only take a microwatt or less to make them visible against the black mask. Andy, I'm not trying to be difficult; I simply don't understand why you wouldn't just turn the camera on and leave it there. The new battery should keep it alive for as long as you need. Why the big deal about seeing framelines with the power off? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 24, 2012 Share #18 Posted September 24, 2012 Maybe there is a trickle charge to the frameline LED. If you know how small the frameline slits really are, and how compact the space they're in is, it would only take a microwatt or less to make them visible against the black mask. We'll just have to see what Leica did - or hear from someone who checked the real deal at photokina. There is no trickle charge and the framelines are not visible when the camera is switched off. I was at Photokina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 25, 2012 Share #19 Posted September 25, 2012 Thanks for the bad news, Andy. I guess. I simply don't understand why you wouldn't just turn the camera on and leave it there. Well, again it depends on what one means by "on." If "on" means on - AND not sleeping (auto power off set to "never") - maybe that's OK. Although I think the battery will then run down much faster than you suppose. If "on" means the camera is on, but the framelines only appear for a few seconds when the shutter is touched (like the metering LEDs) - that's also a non-starter for me. If "on" means "asleep until I touch the shutter button" - which I suspect also means "no framelines until I touch the shutter button" - let's just say I have, over the years, noticed a correlation between weird electrical glitches like "sudden death" and freezeups, and leaving the M8/M9 on and allowing them to sleep. That's reading the posts here and seeing who has those problems and what their habits are regarding letting the camera go to sleep rather than positively turning it off - and from my own experience when I accidentally let my digital Ms drop into sleep mode. (And BTW - let's not debate that. Others' experience may well differ - but I don't base MY operating principles on other people's experience. I'm not trying to persuade anyone that letting their M sleep is bad - but I don't do it.) I changed to Leica precisely to always be able to see things - when the camera is off - that other makers began hiding behind the on/off switch. Shutter speed and aperture being the obvious ones. For M Leicas, framelines also. If Leica also starts hiding these things behind the on-off switch - they've just eliminated most of the reason (for me) for paying $4,000 more to get the "M" over a nice, light D600 with a set of AI'd 1980 MF Nikkors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorianM Posted September 25, 2012 Share #20 Posted September 25, 2012 I've been thinking about this issue myself and I'm wondering if there isn't an improvement to be gained by LED illumination when it comes to RF patch flare resistance. Isn't (wasn't?) the frameline illumination window a source of flare on some older M's ? I don't have my M8 handy to test it. It just doesn't seem like Leica to do things just as a gimmick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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