Megapixel Headache and Design Ideas for Next M9

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

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I think next Leica M9 must be a digital and analog camera together. It must take pictures with ccd or film or together with customer selection.

To use screw lenses with m mount lenses is a genius idea. Next step must give to the customer space for to select film or ccd in single camera.

 

I believe M8 leica is the biggest disaster of all leica history.

I saw M7 and M8 comparing pictures and film is rembrandt and ccd is elementary school child. I schocked with the results.

Films reached their peak point - I am talking about Kodak not Fuji - and Leica must use it.

If they will sell us 10 megapixel camera for less than 10 grand , i would buy a point and shoot Kodak and be happy.

 

First lenses losed their edge , now the bodies are to losing their edge. And even the simplest Leica is extremelly expensive.They did not learn to make a film camera cheap. It is a disaster also.Even simplest binocular is 20 times expensive than the nikon. Its better but money is money.

May be if Leica start to produce point and shoot cameras with the price tag of 30 dollars , they sell 10000 times more camera.

If you are making our cameras worse , make them cheap also.

 

Best ,

 

Mustafa Umut Sarac

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

To use few megapixel camera is similar to use low resolution mp3 for to listen Vienna Philharmoniker.

To design a mount which accepts screw mount lenses do not give a solution to the customer because medium is bad.

May be there is big pressure on leica to build a digital m8 but they will lose their customers with a camera will be out of fashion 5 years later.

The only solution to solve the problem is to build film+ccd camera. May be ccd can take from the viewfinder for photojournalist, there can be a second very small leica lens at the viewfinder while film record for the artist.

Or they can put ccd to the ordinary place with a slide to close it to the dust or rain .

When photographer select to work with film , he she put the slide- like Hasselblad - and load the film to the front of ccd.

Or they can put interchangable ccd. When it out of fashion , service put the new one.

Flexible solutions are the only way out.

 

Best ,

 

Mustafa Umut Sarac

[milsu]

I believe M8 leica is the biggest disaster of all leica history.

 

If you are making our cameras worse, make them cheap also.

 

To use few megapixel camera is similar to use low resolution mp3 for to listen Vienna Philharmoniker.

 

May be there is big pressure on leica to build a digital m8 but they will lose their customers with a camera will be out of fashion 5 years later.

Agree with You. All film Leicas, today's and those made 70 years ago, are still loveable and in use. But when new digital Leica appear, everyone will forget for M8. It won't have much of collectors value either - who would like to collect a camera which was in use only five years?

Fast food... Fast cameras... Fast life...

[steich]

I don´t want to disturb this "before the war it was all better"-nostalgic moment...but:

Has any of you "experts" ever had the M8 in your hands?

I mean, longer than 2 minutes?

Have you ever made REAL photos with it?

Not just "magenta-fishing"?

Stefan

[Iron Flatline]

Ah, the power of the internet.... where EVERYONE has an opinion.

[earleygallery]

Mustafa,

 

The FACTS are that plenty of photographers are buying the M8 and they love it. It produces excellent quality digital images for those photographers that need a small high quality digital solution and/or want to use their Leica glass. I spoke to a photojournalist recently who was using one and he thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Think of the M8 more as a working photographers tool than a future collectors item. I doubt we'll ever see a gold plated lizard skinned M8!

[ejcaliguri@comcast.net]

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I have to STILL side with film. Yes - I have an M8 (and an R9 DMR). They are fantastic digital solutions for today.

 

However - there's still, to me, nothing as beautiful as a correctly exposed slide or B&W negative using Leica glass. The combination sings in away digital still cannot. Get a great High Resolution scan of your slide and a master quality Lightjet print - and you will see the best sharpness, colors and contrast your optics can deliver.

 

Each technology can still coexist

 

Thanks!

[guywalder]

Mustafa,

what about the R9/DMR? Its what you ask for a film And digital camera. It didnt set the market alight. However even with the 'catastrophic' launch of the M8 they cannot keep up with demand for the cameras Or lenses. And this after they got into commercial trouble a couple of years back...

Philisophically you may have a point, but commercially Leica have it right (at last).

 

I havnt had my M8 long enough to form a firm opinion yet, either on it image quality or its reliability, but I hope its going to work out. For me film is fast becoming an anachronism, fun to use now and then, but terribly impractical. After all if IQ really is so important wouldnt we all be shooting 10x8 slides?? Some people still do, but they are in a minority.....

regards,

Guy

[xray]

There was question about the M9 on Rff. I responded that the M9 should be all electronic with a vertical shutter with a flsh sync of a minimum of a 1/250 and a top speed of 1/8000 and bottom speed of 30 seconds and ttl flash. Electronic RF and high eyepoint VF much like the Zeiss ZI. Electronic framelines like the Fuji GA645ZI that would compensate for field of view at different distances and paralax. Matrix metering like Nikon would be excellent. Electronic data transfered from the lens for distance for electronic RF varification and flash data. Combination of full frame digital with noise reduction like canons 1DsII and film combo. The pressure plate would be the CMOS or CCD sensor when film isn't being used. More exposure modes like program, aperture priority etc. Swing out back not the removable base plate. Articulated viewing screen on the back and menu driven functions.The articulated viewing screen would be active while shooting digital so PJ's could hold the camera over heads and view what is being captured. For digital shooting the CCD or CMOS would function as am electronic shutter much like the original 1D canon and give near silent shooting. The mechanical shutter would close to protect the sensor when changing lenses and for film shooting only. Dual quiet motor and manual film advance. Full frame sensor with a minimum of 17 mp. Leica will need to introduce some true zooms for the PJ / digital shooter. The body should be magnesium or carbon fiber to reduce weight. Price must not exceed $8,000 to $9,500 to stay in the ball park. Remember it must compete with the rest of the market in price and exceed the features to capture the pro market and gain market share. Leica needs to get a little more innovative. Re making the same camera for 50+ years just won't cut it any more. I still shoot M's in my work but the M8 isn't good enough and doesn't have anything to offer over less expensive cameras that are proven. I don't see the M8 as much more then an expensive point and shoot with minimal features.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Let's hope the M8 doesn't become collectors item. If it does, it will be because only relatively few were made ... which in turn would be the end of the Marque as we know it.

 

Nothing wrong with this camera that a few more months of fiddling around won't cure. Takes fine photos, and will do so even when the next "upgrade comes along".

[leicapages]

Hi Mustafa,

 

sounds you are ripe for an R9+ DMR which would give you the flexibility you need. That is, of course, if you can still find a DMR ;-)

[davidmires]

I already have the choice to use film or digital with M lenses. It's called M8 and M6ttl in my bag.

I hope the M9 has a replaceable emulsion strip sensor and the M8 (1/8000 sec) shutter.

Even if that comes true, I will probably carry my all-mechanical-shutter-M6 anyway...

[ylianos]

There was question about the M9 on Rff. I responded that the M9 should be all electronic with a vertical shutter with a flsh sync of a minimum of a 1/250 and a top speed of 1/8000 and bottom speed of 30 seconds and ttl flash. Electronic RF and high eyepoint VF much like the Zeiss ZI. Electronic framelines like the Fuji GA645ZI that would compensate for field of view at different distances and paralax. Matrix metering like Nikon would be excellent. Electronic data transfered from the lens for distance for electronic RF varification and flash data. Combination of full frame digital with noise reduction like canons 1DsII and film combo. The pressure plate would be the CMOS or CCD sensor when film isn't being used. More exposure modes like program, aperture priority etc. Swing out back not the removable base plate. Articulated viewing screen on the back and menu driven functions.The articulated viewing screen would be active while shooting digital so PJ's could hold the camera over heads and view what is being captured. For digital shooting the CCD or CMOS would function as am electronic shutter much like the original 1D canon and give near silent shooting. The mechanical shutter would close to protect the sensor when changing lenses and for film shooting only. Dual quiet motor and manual film advance. Full frame sensor with a minimum of 17 mp. Leica will need to introduce some true zooms for the PJ / digital shooter. The body should be magnesium or carbon fiber to reduce weight. Price must not exceed $8,000 to $9,500 to stay in the ball park. Remember it must compete with the rest of the market in price and exceed the features to capture the pro market and gain market share. Leica needs to get a little more innovative. Re making the same camera for 50+ years just won't cut it any more. I still shoot M's in my work but the M8 isn't good enough and doesn't have anything to offer over less expensive cameras that are proven. I don't see the M8 as much more then an expensive point and shoot with minimal features.

 

excuse me, do you know what a rangefinder is useful for? The 'monster' you describe is a Canon or Nikon DSLR not a rangefinder.

[xray]

excuse me, do you know what a rangefinder is useful for? The 'monster' you describe is a Canon or Nikon DSLR not a rangefinder.

 

 

Excuse me, yes I do. I've shot Leica M's professionally for 39 years. I don't think the M is the perfect camera. Do you? Think outside the box a little. Technology will eventually reach a point where this will be possible in a package no larger then the current M. By the way I use canon 1DsII's in my commercial work and they won't shoot film and don't have active capture or display or an articulated viewing screen. Think back ten years, who would have thought digital capture would have reached this level in such a short period. Ten years ago I don't think the 1mp barrier had been crossed. I remember reading an article written by Kodak saying they had developed a 1 mp chip. At the time the cost of that chip was $90,000.

 

The question was what would I like to see in the M9. In a perfect world this is what I would like. Where do you think technology will be in another ten years? Where will Leica be in another ten years?

 

Leica has to show some imagination and come up with something other than the tired old design they've used for fifty plus years. The M8 isn't cutting edge in any way. It's not a camera I would even think of taking on assignement. Reliability and image issues are too much a reality to depend on it and 10 MP is a joke for professionals in this day and time. For $4,750 Leica has to do better than this.

[stunsworth]

...10 MP is a joke for professionals in this day and time.

Really? Maybe you should tell that to Canon who have just announced the EOS-1D Mark III. A professional 10 mp camera that costs more than an M8 in the UK.

[lct]

...For $4,750 Leica has to do better than this.

Agree but i have a more 'modest' view of what a digital M should be personally.

1. In essence the M system is an open system. This has been forgotten by Leica and it is a shame. All M mount lenses should fit without color cast due to IR or whatever reason. We should be able to use our old Leica lenses without getting ugly magenta or cyan cast in any way.

2. Forget the so called 'full frame' format. It is not feasable so far. Also the M format is a small format in essence and 24x36 has been replaced by APS-C in the digital field. What's the point of choosing an APS-H sensor if Leica is unable to cope with it without forcing photogs to use ridiculous reddish filters with each of their lenses? To avoid vignetting and IR problems, suffice it to be less arrogant and choose a more 'modest' APS-C sensor with a decent filter like that of the Nikon D2X and the same good micro lenses as the M8's. With our fabulous Leica lenses, the results would better than the excellent ones of Nikon in a much smaller package. Incidentally our dear 50mm Leica lenses would become great 75mm ones instead of 66mm which is either too short or too long.

3. In essence, the Leica M is an unobtrusive camera. This has been also forgotten with the M8. In no way should the M9 make a shutter noise as loud as that of a DSLR. If Leica has no new ideas about this, suffice it to do like Epson and quieter than Epson.

4. In essence a Leica M is a simple camera. It is unacceptable that one must go 'chimping' to do simple things like changing an EV setting.

5. OK with electronic framelines of course. There is no point of getting so many framelines together in a viewfinder.

6. OK with the articulated viewing screen as well.

[xray]

Really? Maybe you should tell that to Canon who have just announced the EOS-1D Mark III. A professional 10 mp camera that costs more than an M8 in the UK.

 

Sorry I should have mentioned the 10 MP in the commercial world. In the PJ world, what the 1Dmklll was originally designed for, 10mp is over kill and 1.3 crop is ideal. Look at what the MKIII offers, 10 fps, weather seals, optional radio system to transmit files to the server or computer, dual card slots, ultra fast write to card, ultra long life with batteries, many many very high quality lenses in the L line. Even many of the L lenses have weather seals.

 

I'm not trying to down the M8 but it's not a runner in the pro digital race. You'll find a few using them but Leica won't take any sales away from canon or nikon. It just doesn't have much to offer.

 

I wish Leica would have gotten a little more serious about the pro market with the M8. I was prepared to buy untill I found out it was 10 mp and 1.33 crop plus all the other problems associated with it. I really believe the M8 was aimed at the amateur market not the pro market. Just my opinion.

 

By the way the MKIII will run about the same price as the M8 in the US.

 

 

LCT:

 

I agree Leica has forgotten what it's all about. Technology will soon make it possible to do full frame sensors in the M and most of the other things I mentioned. I've wondered what the M8 would have been like if Leica had farmed the design out to Canon and Nikon. I believe the M8 would have been full frame and a high frame rate with many of the features i would like to see. In the first 1D canon with the CCD sensor the shutter didn't make the exposure. it was made by switching the CCD on and off at a high rate. The sutter only protected the sensor and came into play for exposures at long exposure times. I think the CCD sensor of theis type would lend itself well to a ultra quier M digital where the shutter only worked to cap the censor when changing lenses. The camera doesn't have to be complicated but it does have to be cutting edge. I just don't think leica has it in them to do this. Leica hasn't been the cutting edge company they once were for the past forty five years. Other than putting TTL flash in the M6 and an internal meter and later the M7 they really haven't made any advancements. In come cases they've moved backward with quality cuts. Even the M7 isn't new cutting edge technology. How many years did it take leica to come out with ttl metering. Nikon, canon and every other maker had it for 20 years. Auto exposure took them another 20+ years for aperture priority.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still have 6 M's and use them professionally on a weekly basis and will continue to untill I can't lift them tyo my eye. They're great for my application.

[StS]

I would like to see these points in a M9:

• ISO - dial
  
• EV - dial
  
• Fast access to White Balance setting
  
• Shutter as silent as possible
  

 

Dials seem to be more in line with the M philosophy.

 

Silly point - I miss the film transport lever as a rest for my thumb

[AlanG]

Ten years ago I don't think the 1mp barrier had been crossed. I remember reading an article written by Kodak saying they had developed a 1 mp chip. At the time the cost of that chip was $90,000.

 

A small point of correction, Kodak introduced the 6 magapixel DCS 460 around 1994 or 1995. It was based on a Nikon N90/F90 body. It sold for around $25,000-$30,000.

 

Here's a link with the history of the development of Kodak digital cameras.

Kodak DCS-Digital Still SLR camera - Index Page

 

Without getting into the pluses and minus of any film vs digital debate, it is my opinion that if anything Leica came too late to the digital party. The kinds of photographers who "typically" use Leica M models professionally were some of the first who required digital capture.

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[zapp]

I think next Leica M9 must be a digital and analog camera together. It must take pictures with ccd or film or together with customer selection.

To use screw lenses with m mount lenses is a genius idea. Next step must give to the customer space for to select film or ccd in single camera.

 

I believe M8 leica is the biggest disaster of all leica history.

I saw M7 and M8 comparing pictures and film is rembrandt and ccd is elementary school child. I schocked with the results.

Films reached their peak point - I am talking about Kodak not Fuji - and Leica must use it.

If they will sell us 10 megapixel camera for less than 10 grand , i would buy a point and shoot Kodak and be happy.

 

First lenses losed their edge , now the bodies are to losing their edge. And even the simplest Leica is extremelly expensive.They did not learn to make a film camera cheap. It is a disaster also.Even simplest binocular is 20 times expensive than the nikon. Its better but money is money.

May be if Leica start to produce point and shoot cameras with the price tag of 30 dollars , they sell 10000 times more camera.

If you are making our cameras worse , make them cheap also.

 

Best ,

 

Mustafa Umut Sarac

I completely disagree. No camera can be optimzed for digital and film at the same time. It is foolish to think that you can just swap sensors and be happy in both worlds.

You want a 30 Dollar Leica, but the quality of a 6000 Dollar camera. Well forget it. The word cheap does not go well along with the word quality.

Leica lenses have not lost their edge - although some designs are rather old and optically not up to snuff with other manufacterers lenses, the new ones (all since 1990 and a couple more) are unmatched.

If you do not see an advantage in quality from Leica, you are welcome to buy a Kodak.