RoRoRoPa Posted August 19, 2012 Share #1 Â Posted August 19, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Recently I received an email from a gentleman from South Germany. As an antiquity bookstore owner he had obtained a Leica collection which he was selling here in the forum classifieds about a year ago. This time he had a few items for offer and I bought an M4-P and an early M6, both cameras were to be in pristine, working condition - the M6 even in mint condition. I was severely disappointed when I finally received the goods: the M6 had a sticky shutter brake and the M4-P has a fogged viewfinder. So both cameras were in need of a CLA. I called him to inform him of the situation and that I intended to get a refund. He thought I wanted a discount, so I explained to him the nature of the defects. He just replied I should return them and he would just sell them to another customer. I assume it is someone from this forum - perhaps from New Zealand, which he mentioned a couple of times. When he told me about his plans to sell it to the next guy, I pointed out once again, that both cameras should be considered defective instead of pristine and functioning. He just replied that he had sold so many Leicas and that I lack the expertise. Â Today he informed me to ship back the cameras, requesting me take extra good care packaging it for the protection of both cameras. He wrote it in a very threatening way. Â Perhaps this warning message can save the prospective buyer a serious case of buyers remorse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 Hi RoRoRoPa, Take a look here Warning: pristine M6 and M4-P from South Germany. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Messsucherkamera Posted August 19, 2012 Share #2 Â Posted August 19, 2012 An ethical seller would state the defects in each camera up front rather than trumpet that they are pristine. He would then do some research to find out the cost of the needed repairs and then deduct that cost along with shipping to the repair facility from the sale price of each camera. Â It would appear that this seller has no ethics and is not the kind of person that anyone would want to get involved in a transaction with. Â P.T. Barnum once said "There's a sucker born every minute." It would also seem that there's also a low life born every minute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted August 19, 2012 Share #3 Â Posted August 19, 2012 I think nowadays there are more low lifes born every minute than suckers. On second thought though, look at how many suckers bought into hope and change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 20, 2012 Share #4 Â Posted August 20, 2012 If they're to be advertised in the Buy and Sell forum here then perhaps name and shame to protect other unsuspecting forum members and to maintain the forum's sound reputation? Â Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRoRoPa Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share #5  Posted August 20, 2012 If they're to be advertised in the Buy and Sell forum here then perhaps name and shame to protect other unsuspecting forum members and to maintain the forum's sound reputation? Pete.  He had an ad there last year. Recently he contacted everybody who replied to his ad last year via email offering some remaining or additional items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted August 20, 2012 Share #6 Â Posted August 20, 2012 Sorry to hear about this and thanks for the warning. Â I have only bought one lens on the Buy and Sell and was very happy with it. All my other Leica equipment has been bought from dealers. The other day I was at the photo fair in Doesburg and looked at the many offers there. But a question stuck in my mind - why buy from these people whom I don't know anything about? It's like inviting a CLA. So I generally prefer buying from dealers, also because of the warranty, or at least right to return, they offer. Â On a similar note, I have tried to sell my Macbook (5,1 in excellent condition) on the Dutch Marktplaats but every time I place an add I get approached by scammers, fishing for bank details or asking me to ship the computer to Nigeria against an increase in the price of 70 Euro. Incredible. This has happened to me every time I have tried to sell anything on Marktplaats. Anyway, sorry to digress. Again thanks for the heads up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 21, 2012 Share #7  Posted August 21, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) On a similar note, I have tried to sell my Macbook (5,1 in excellent condition) on the Dutch Marktplaats but every time I place an add I get approached by scammers  I've had that problem in recent years trying to sell anything vaguely popular (Apple stuff and Canon lenses) on eBay. It can get really tedious with the amount of wasted time and having to lodge a dispute to get the final value fees back, etc. I think the only solution (at least on eBay) is to require immediate Paypal payment. That seems to keep the criminal element at bay but does mean having to use Paypal (which is an unfortunate given these days using eBay). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted August 21, 2012 Share #8 Â Posted August 21, 2012 His warning you to pack the gear safely almost seems to be Act One of a two act play in which in the second act he claims the problems were caused by poor packing for shipping from you to him.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRoRoPa Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share #9 Â Posted August 21, 2012 His warning you to pack the gear safely almost seems to be Act One of a two act play in which in the second act he claims the problems were caused by poor packing for shipping from you to him.. Â I concur. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
symmetron Posted August 21, 2012 Share #10 Â Posted August 21, 2012 Before shipping I would document the defects visually perhaps with still or video images. It sounds as though this seller's gonna make it difficult. Hopefully not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 21, 2012 Share #11 Â Posted August 21, 2012 And document the way you pack it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 21, 2012 Share #12 Â Posted August 21, 2012 I was severely disappointed when I finally received the goods: the M6 had a sticky shutter brake and the M4-P has a fogged viewfinder. So both cameras were in need of a CLA. I called him to inform him of the situation and that I intended to get a refund. He thought I wanted a discount, Â Both "defects" are the result of disuse not abuse. If not for those defects would you have been satisfied with the overall cosmetic condition? If so I would have negotiated a discount for the cost of a CLA on both cameras. The fact is unless done recently, any M4-P and almost any M6 you will find today could well benefit from a CLA, if not will need it outright. Getting it done yourself assures you a)that it has been done, and b)that it has been done by a factory-trained expert and not some incompetent backroom hack. Â I'm not sure at this point you still have this option with this seller, but it might be something to consider vs paying to ship them back and then risk a protracted fight for a refund once the cameras and your money are in his hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRoRoPa Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share #13 Â Posted August 21, 2012 Both "defects" are the result of disuse not abuse. If not for those defects would you have been satisfied with the overall cosmetic condition? If so I would have negotiated a discount for the cost of a CLA on both cameras. The fact is unless done recently, any M4-P and almost any M6 you will find today could well benefit from a CLA, if not will need it outright. Getting it done yourself assures you a)that it has been done, and b)that it has been done by a factory-trained expert and not some incompetent backroom hack. Â I'm not sure at this point you still have this option with this seller, but it might be something to consider vs paying to ship them back and then risk a protracted fight for a refund once the cameras and your money are in his hands. Â From the first moment I described the defects he thought I was begging for a discount. He told me to ship the stuff back and he would sell it for more to the next guy. His entire communication after my reclamation was unfriendly, aggressive and immature at best. I don't want to do any more business with that person / bookshop. My post here was just meant to warn the one or two buyers of those cameras, since I suspect he won't be informing them about the defects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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