M8 breakdown - still examining possibilities

[adan]

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Incidentally, my M8 showed its first electronic misbehavior during my cross-country trip to Vegas and PMA.

 

First time, the top of the camera would not turn on (shutter, battery/frames indicator, finder LEDs), while the bottom of the camera (LCD, buttons, menus,) turned on and then would not turn off. I could review and change menu settings, and do so even with the switch set to "OFF". Popping out the battery for a 2-minute "time-out" cleared it up.

 

Second time (same battery) nothing worked, and neither did resetting by taking out the battery. I had to put in a different battery, which then worked fine.

 

I am "reconditioning" that suspect battery at the moment (full discharge followed by full recharging) to see if that is the culprit.

 

I did notice at PMA that the new Canon 1D Mk III now specifically has a measure of battery condition (not just charge, but condition) in its battery management menu, that will tell the user if the battery is getting out of shape. So obviously it is a fact of life with Li-ions that they need a "power enema" every so often to behave their best. I know the Apple laptop I had required full-discharge/recharge cycles every so often to keep the battery at maximum capacity and performance.

 

Stefan Daniel said that the shut-down issue is very frustrating because it is so intermittent - Leica has not yet been able to track down a common element among the date of manufacture, battery condition, on/off switch failures, etc.

 

Incidentally, the problem first appeared sometime after installing firmware 1.092 (PLEASE remember the zero, folks - Leica may get around to a firmware 1.92 sometime in 2009, but it doesn't exist yet! First we have to see versions 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 etc.). But since others had the problem prior to 1.092, that shouldn't be the issue. Query - has anyone had these shutdowns using the original 1.06? I did not - over 6000 exposures.

[marknorton]

I know most people here are ignorant of Nikons but the D2x has a much better level of intelligence of battery condition than the M8. Canon are just playing catch up.

 

The Nikon battery has flash RAM built into it which is updated with information on battery usage both by the camera and the charger so that when you next use that battery, you can be very confident about what the battery meter is telling you. It also has 5 stages of battery ageing to tell you when the battery is reaching the end of its useful life.

 

None of this hit and miss, sudden death you get with the M8.

[barjohn]

The apparent high incidence of camera failures is getting old. I really really like this camera but at $5K I, and I suspect others here, expect a high degree of reliability. The fact that som mnay users on this forum have experienced either intermitent failures or complete failures isnot boding well for the M8. I want to be able to travel witht he camera and not have to worry that the next time I go to turn it on it won't. I thinkwe should start a thread rquesting that Leica management be forthcoming about this issue. I would like the following questions asnwered:

 

1. Are the failures we are seeing due to a faulty hardware component?

2. If the answer to 1. is yes, is it becasue it is underrated to perform its function or is from a bad manufactureing lot that is not up to specifications?

3. Are the failures we are seeing do to an unresolved firmware bug? (The failures appear to be happening with every version of the released frirmware todate.)

4. Will we have to send our cameras back to Germany for the repair if it is hardware related?

5. If we don't want to send the camera back can we obtain a full refund of our purchase price?

6. If the problem has been identified and fixed is there a way to identify if one has the fixed version (For example, serial number range)?

7. How soon can we expect to have a reliable camera?

8. If Leica hasn't identified the casue of the failures, why not?

9. If the problem is hardware related will Leica offer an exchange prgram instead fo requiring the camera to be sent back for months?

 

Perhaps if we started a thread with these questions and any I didn't hink of and one of us sent it to Leica requesting a response we could find out what is going on before it strikes the next of us unexpectedly and with Murphy at the helm, an inoportune time.

[chetccox]

I agree. There are just too many failures occurring with regular posting forum members - not someone who has just posted once because his camera failed. If I have to lug two cameras with me when I travel around the world I should have kept the 5d, 10d, or 20d that I previously had. None of them ever failed. My M8 is still working but every time I pick it up I have to wonder.

[barjohn]

In the two most current Luminous Landscape articles on the M8 in Antartica and in Buenow Aires, you will not the Michael had a failure similar to Edward's problems posted here, so he may be sitting on a ticking bomb as it seems that once one starts seeing strange behavior it won't be long before total failure follows.

 

My camera has been ok so far and I head for Hawaii this week on business and pleasure so I hope it doesn't fail me over there. I feel very bad for those that are having failures and fully recognize that I could be next.

[tashley]

I agree. There are just too many failures occurring with regular posting forum members - not someone who has just posted once because his camera failed. If I have to lug two cameras with me when I travel around the world I should have kept the 5d, 10d, or 20d that I previously had. None of them ever failed. My M8 is still working but every time I pick it up I have to wonder.

 

 

You know what? I never take a backup other than a P&S and yet I should. Regardless if this happens to the M8 more fequently than other cameras (and I am sure it does) if I ever get caught short on a shooting trip with no backup, which one day I will, I will have no one to blame but myself...

 

Tim

[chetccox]

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You are certainly correct. I do not make money from pictures and have never sold one. I simply take them for my own enjoyment. I have a point and shoot, and always do take it with me as it is great for some occassions when you only need a shirtpocket camera. I also have a sony r1, but it is huge. I want high quality M8 pictures, not sony t50 shots, and I have the M8 for its size and weight. I have no complaints - yet. However, statistically it does not look good. Then again, I don't fly on Indonesian airplanes.

[marknorton]

We don't know much about the architecture of the M8 electronics but we do know there are a number of different components each receiving a firmware update. Many of the failure reports suggest the camera is partially functioning and one of Andy's failures, for example, showed that the top half of the camera was functioning while other parts of it were not.

 

There's no surprise the camera can keep functioning when you switch it off. The On/Off switch is nothing more than an input to one of the processors which will then signal to the others to shut down or start up.

 

My guess is that these failures are caused by a breakdown in inter-processor communications, due either to a firmware problem causing one end to stop responding or else some sort of hardware latch-up which causes the physical links to fail.

[haika]

I know most people here are ignorant of Nikons but the D2x has a much better level of intelligence of battery condition than the M8.

[snip]

The Nikon battery has flash RAM built into it which is updated with information on battery usage both by the camera and the charger so that when you next use that battery, you can be very confident about what the battery meter is telling you..

 

also, the d2x standard battery lasts at least 1200 shots. i own a spare, but hardly ever need it.

since i am in the market for an m8, i'd like to find out how many shots a functioning battery lasts on average. what is your experience? elsewhere on the forum, i recall to have read something like "one 2gb card", i.e., less than 200 dng exposures. is it really that low?

 

servus,

günter

[stunsworth]

Gunter, a lot more than 200. I'd guess at least 400 shot on a fully charged battery. The most I've ever had at one session is 300 shots with power left in the battery.

 

The size of the M body means that it'll never be able to have as large a battery as a Nikon or Canon SLR.

[haika]

thanks, steve, this sounds better. i understand the size and weight issue.

still, i probably better get a spare battery with my m8. with trips to krakow, paris and barcelona coming up later this spring, i might shoot more than 400 pics in a day.

 

servus,

günter

[stunsworth]

Absolutely Gunter, the first M8 accessory I bought was a spare battery, the second was four additional 2 gig cards :-)

[pfogle]

Hang on, aren't we talking apples and oranges here? The Canon 1D series have NiMH batteries, don't know about Nikon. These batteries do need deep discharge occasionally, the 1Dm2 has a condition button on the charger also.

 

AFAIK, it's NOT good to deep discharge Li-ion batteries at any time - they like topping up and will fail completely if over-discharged.

 

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here...

[marknorton]

Nikon used Li-Ion and there's a button on the charger to force the battery through a full discharge-charge cycle, but I doubt that it's a deep discharge, just down to some predefined lower limit.

[billh]

Query - has anyone had these shutdowns using the original 1.06? I did not - over 6000 exposures.

 

Yes.

[ho_co]

I know most people here are ignorant of Nikons but the D2x has a much better level of intelligence of battery condition than the M8.

Even the D200 is similar, though it doesn't offer the special discharge button on the charger. Stages of condition, how many times charged/discharged etc.

[ho_co]

In the two most current Luminous Landscape articles on the M8 in Antartica and in Buenow Aires, you will not the Michael had a failure similar to Edward's problems posted here, ...

If I'm not mistaken:

 

Reichmann had the problem with the WATE, but no problem with the camera.

 

Nick Devlin had the flakey behavior.

 

--HC

[ho_co]

John--You give a long list of questions above in http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/18742-m8-breakdown-still-examining-possibilities.html?posted=1#post197725, but I think you're premature.

 

Leica doesn't know what the trouble is, and you ask "why not?" Well, you can't answer that till you know what the problem is, can you, because only then can you tell why you overlooked it before.

 

And most of your questions are dependent on discovering the problem. "May I have my money back?" "Must I send to Germany?" "Is it hardware-related?"

 

They've got a serious problem and they know it. Andy talked to them, Mark is analyzing it in his painstaking way, everyone on the forum and at Leica is aware of the problem and working on it.

 

So forgive me if I seem a little overbearing, but AHEM! Use it while you've got it; don't worry about it. If it goes haywire, have Leica check it.

 

As others have said, it's always good to have a backup. But I'm just someone who like making pictures, and I figure if the camera goes down then maybe after I get over my anger I'll be able to enjoy the trip more.

 

On the other hand, I'm still waiting for my M8. Maybe if I had one I would join you guys on the worry boat.

 

Respectfully,

HC

[Guest stnami]

Those that subscribe to other Leica forums ie rangefinder and DPR all the same amount breakdowns occuring there? What about the German forum here?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[barjohn]

John--You give a long list of questions above in http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/18742-m8-breakdown-still-examining-possibilities.html?posted=1#post197725, but I think you're premature.

 

Leica doesn't know what the trouble is, and you ask "why not?" Well, you can't answer that till you know what the problem is, can you, because only then can you tell why you overlooked it before.

 

And most of your questions are dependent on discovering the problem. "May I have my money back?" "Must I send to Germany?" "Is it hardware-related?"

 

They've got a serious problem and they know it. Andy talked to them, Mark is analyzing it in his painstaking way, everyone on the forum and at Leica is aware of the problem and working on it.

 

So forgive me if I seem a little overbearing, but AHEM! Use it while you've got it; don't worry about it. If it goes haywire, have Leica check it.

 

As others have said, it's always good to have a backup. But I'm just someone who like making pictures, and I figure if the camera goes down then maybe after I get over my anger I'll be able to enjoy the trip more.

 

On the other hand, I'm still waiting for my M8. Maybe if I had one I would join you guys on the worry boat.

 

Respectfully,

HC

 

I don't understand why you don't have one to worry about. They have been readily available from most of the major vendors here on a pretty regular basis. I got mine the next day after seeing a dealer had some in stock. It happens frequently on the forum. Put your money where your...is and have it fail and be gone for two months and then we will appreciate your telling us not to worry:) It's real easy when it's not your five grand on the line.

 

As an aside, I was thinking, if Leica has sold 10,000 cameras and only 8% failed (800) then it is only a $4 million dollar problem.

 

The comment that Leica does not know what the problem is makes no sense to me. They have had enogh sent back by now to have a very good idea what is failing, even if it is more than one thing that is failing. Their engineers should also have a pretty good idea what it will take to fix it. Whether management wants to undergo the expense or not is another issue. Perhaps they want to do like many U.S. auto manufacturers have done and wait to be sued figuring that it will cost less to settle suits (or warranty claims) as they arise rather than doing a general recall to fix the problem (especially right after the last recall). I hope this isn't the case because if it is it will be the death of Leica and I for one would hate to see that happen to a company with such a great history in phtography.