M10: A Vital Part

[stunsworth]

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They won't get rid of the optical viewfinder. It's the reason most people who buy an M do so instead of an SLR a or camera with an EVF.

 

They may however offer an EVF as a clip on extra, and they may change the rangefinder focussing system. I don't expect AF because the viewfinder isn't a totally accurate view of what's being taken, so the position of any AF 'spot' can't be accurately shown in the viewfinder.

 

All IMHO of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if totally wrong.

 

After using SLRs, EVFs, rear screens and Ms, I still greatly prefer the M system.

[lars_bergquist]

I should maybe point out that the discussion, at least when I started it, was not about the merits or demerits of electronic viewfinders. That's a different issue. I just take it for granted that the 'M10' will have live view and an accessory EVF. If you disagree, what's the fuss? Then your position is that it won't happen and you can forget this thread. Cool down and save the adrenalin.

 

But my contention is that more people than you (and Leica) know do use flash sometimes and we should not be content to have an Übergnome of Solms dictate to us that "flash must NEVER be used with anything that requires an accessory finder, period, 'cause I say so and I'm the Übergnome!"

 

Now with conventional optical accessory finders I evade that dictate by using an independent accessory called a Nissin SC01 flash cord, which has a shoe stuck on top of the camera-side connector. So you can use the cord and still use a brightline finder. But that's because that finder does not require any electrical connections. An EVF does, so it can't be used.

 

When (OK, 'if' if you are fussy) the 'M10' appears with live view and extra shoe connections for a push-on EVF, then we shall of course hear the unison chorus of condemnation that has greeted every new Leica model since the Leica I. But believe me, some gents of dubious orthodoxy, probably from that heathenish crowd who are actually defiling their Leicas by taking interesting photos with them, will actually use those features. And after a while, they will seem as natural as the rewind lever, which was roundly anathemised by many people when it was introduced in 1954, and then bewailed (probably by their sons and grandsons) when it was deleted from the M8.

 

And by the way, TTL is also dissed by some people. It is a technology which has its limitations. You know what? Every technology has limitations. External auto has limitations. Manual flash has limitations. Even flash powder had limitations. I know, for I was there.

 

The old man who got his eyebrows singed

[asmith]

I am not sure I know what live view and EVF are but I assume they are what you have onnthe D2 and Vlux3, both of which I have and use. I can't see why anyone would wish to have them on an M. It is an entirely different system with its own special virtues. To me, the great thing about the M9 is that it is essentially the same camera as the M3,M2, M4, and M6 and M7, all of which I have used with great satisfaction over many years.

Alwyn

[mwilliamsphotography]

The "foregone conclusion" that the next M will have an EVF "accessory", and it will eliminate the hot shoe flash connection, is supported by what information?

 

IMO, EVF technology is in its infancy as of now. The use of EVF in low light is an odd and distracting experience ... one eye that sees as if it were daylight, and the other either closed or peering into the dark. Maybe Leica will provide a binocular EFV ... they are quite experienced at making monstrosity add-ons for the M ... like the Fankenfinder : -)

 

Leica M users don't pack it up in extreme low light because they can't focus ... it is because they have run out of ISO options. CMOS will most likely solve that for those allergic to flash.

 

Leica has never been all that supportive of flash use. The Metz made aux lighting for Leica is always ahead in price, and miles behind in flexible lighting performance compared to CaNikon.

 

The SF24D is a ridged head speed-light using 123As @ $350 ... would it kill them to offer something like the bounce head W/A-Tele Sony HVL-F20AM that uses AAAs @ $148?

 

Trying to use a manual focus M with off-camera corded flash is akin to a clown juggling a bunch of M lenses ... one of which is going to hit the concrete eventually.

 

If Leica DOES eliminate the hot-shoe, and provides no other way to trigger lights, the best accessory for the M10 will be a M9.

 

-Marc

[pgk]

And by the way, TTL is also dissed by some people. It is a technology which has its limitations.

TTL is simply a form of automation (I haven't thought of it as a technology!) because the camera determines the flash exposure, not the photographer. With dSLRs it has increased in 'accuracy' because of 'matrix' or 'multi-segment' metering which is harnessed in conjunction with it and gives the camera a lot more information with which to base its exposure on. To date M cameras still utilise centre weighted metering which imposes substantial limitations on the effectiveness of TTL flash.

 

FWIW I use manual flash control on my Canon 5D2s because, although I've used TTL units on them I find it quicker and more effective to use manual after a few test shots establish what settings are needed. I've never even bothered trying TTL on my M8/9s because I see so little point in doing so. Increasing the TTL flash capability of an M camera requires substantial rethinking of the electronics and IMHO the whole 'simplistic' concept of the M rangefinder would be compromised by multiple added on bits. As I have said elsewhere I have no problems with another M lens fitting camera but if a new M rangefinder compromises on simplicity it will risk losing those who like the simplistic concept for what it is.

[jaapv]

The hot shoe would not be eliminated, it would be occupied by the putative EVF if used.

The "foregone conclusion" that the next M will have an EVF "accessory", and it will eliminate the hot shoe flash connection, is supported by what information?

 

IMO, EVF technology is in its infancy as of now. The use of EVF in low light is an odd and distracting experience ... one eye that sees as if it were daylight, and the other either closed or peering into the dark. Maybe Leica will provide a binocular EFV ... they are quite experienced at making monstrosity add-ons for the M ... like the Fankenfinder : -)

 

Leica M users don't pack it up in extreme low light because they can't focus ... it is because they have run out of ISO options. CMOS will most likely solve that for those allergic to flash.

 

Leica has never been all that supportive of flash use. The Metz made aux lighting for Leica is always ahead in price, and miles behind in flexible lighting performance compared to CaNikon.

 

The SF24D is a ridged head speed-light using 123As @ $350 ... would it kill them to offer something like the bounce head W/A-Tele Sony HVL-F20AM that uses AAAs @ $148?

 

Trying to use a manual focus M with off-camera corded flash is akin to a clown juggling a bunch of M lenses ... one of which is going to hit the concrete eventually.

 

If Leica DOES eliminate the hot-shoe, and provides no other way to trigger lights, the best accessory for the M10 will be a M9.

 

-Marc

[Photoskeptic]

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Lars, several (okay, further back than that) years ago I saw a Leica with a double hot shoe adapter. I have since seen one for a medium format film camera. It would seem to me an aggressive search might turn one up and your problem would be solved.

 

And, another thing - why limit yourself to flash by Leica? I used a Nikon flash on my M8 to shoot a wedding and it worked a treat.

[algrove]

Why not put a flash connector on the top of the EVF? Not pretty, but then again neither is an EVF on top of a beautiful camera. Somehow EVF's just seem like an afterthought to me no matter what company/camera I'm looking at.

 

My wife loves the X2 with EVF. I say OK as long as I can get an MM (without EVF thank God) and that elusive APO 50.

[01af]

The "foregone conclusion" that the next M will have an EVF "accessory", and it will eliminate the hot shoe flash connection, is supported by what information?

None at all.

[mjh]

The "foregone conclusion" that the next M will have an EVF "accessory", and it will eliminate the hot shoe flash connection, is supported by what information?

That the next M will support an optional EVF via some kind of accessory port is just an educated guess. It’s quite likely – more likely than either offering no support for an EVF at all, replacing the rangefinder by a built-in EVF, or having both a rangefinder and a built-in EVF – but not certain until Leica announces the camera. If there should be an optional EVF it again appears to be likely to assume that it will be attached to the hot shoe. At least that solution would require the least changes to the design. And of course the hot shoe is were add-on viewfinders traditionally go.

[bocaburger]

 

IMO, EVF technology is in its infancy as of now. The use of EVF in low light is an odd and distracting experience ... one eye that sees as if it were daylight, and the other either closed or peering into the dark.............Leica M users don't pack it up in extreme low light because they can't focus

 

Thanks, I was beginning to worry I was the only one who thinks so.

[bocaburger]

The hot shoe would not be eliminated, it would be occupied by the putative EVF if used.

 

Unlike an optical finder, an EVF doesn't need to be mounted directly above the lens, so I don't get why Leica couldn't put a second shoe over on that large expanse of empty top plate above the standard eyepiece (get rid of the pointless step), with the EVF connector in the shoe itself. (Of course that would mean they'd have to contract a dedicated EVF rather than just re-badge an exisiting one and double the price )

[lct]

Hotshoes are not mandatory to use flash folks. Main problem is to know if a digital M will have at last a flash socket IMHO.

[pico]

Hotshoes are not mandatory to use flash folks. Main problem is to know if a digital M will have at last a flash socket IMHO.

 

To use TTL the system needs a number of pins/connectors. I wonder if it could be done via an adapter through the mini-USB?

[jonoslack]

Not that I will be in the market for a 10, but the prospect of a seperate EVF fills me with fear. Anyone ever tried the one for the panasonic GF1 the most useless £175 I ever spent......

 

I've got that finder on my LX5. I like it a lot better than using the rear LCD, but that's the most I can say for it. I always use the LX5 autofocus, so the EVF is just for framing. I can't imagine using it to manually focus a Leica lens on a GF1, but I guess some people do.

 

Right now the state of the art in EVFs leaves much to my desire, and even if I get an M10 I wouldn't spend for the EVF. I'll just be grateful if it is an option and not a built-in.

 

What if you couldn't? That's my situation with an EVF.

 

Well, if the GF1 / LX5 EVF is what you've used, then fair enough: it's horrid compared to the 'Olympus' finder on the X2.

 

There's been plenty of suggestions of a CMOS sensor, but the only evidence of a clip on EVF was on the Leica Rumours spy shot - which might as easily be a fake as not.

 

I've been shooting an OMD with various R lenses, and critical focus is really easy to get - the viewfinder is a pleasure to use (for macro and telephoto especially). Focusing is easy without the need to zoom in (hate it) or focus confirmation (don't want to look at little green lights when focusing). Added to which the fact that you can focus on any part of the screen really easily is a huge benefit - no more focus and recompose stuff here.

 

The faster refresh rate and the higher resolution make a world of difference. Of course, it doesn't look as nice as a good optical finder, and it would be horrid if the M10 had it instead of the standard rangefinder, but as an addition it would be fine.

 

As far as low light is concerned I can't really imagine why one wouldn't be using an M lens with the rangefinder in low light anyway, and I'm with Marc here, one runs out of ISO long before focusing is too difficult.

[lars_bergquist]

To use TTL the system needs a number of pins/connectors. I wonder if it could be done via an adapter through the mini-USB?

 

That is one under-utilised feature with a lot of development pontential. Remote control – timer – and yes, maybe flash.

 

Yes, EVF technology is in its infancy. Which means that it may yet go a long way. I think that it can already now serve to extend the useability of the M camera. And it will do it in a far less clunky way than the old Visoflexes did.

 

As for TTL flash, I see that some people are so vehemently against it, as a matter of high principle obviously, that they will not even try it. Like the prelates that would not look through Galilei's telescope, because the Bible and Aristotle and Ptolemy had already told them that they would see nothing.

 

But it does work, when used intellligently. That may of course be the problem.

 

The old man from the Visoflex Age

[bocaburger]

Well, if the GF1 / LX5 EVF is what you've used, then fair enough: it's horrid compared to the 'Olympus' finder on the X2.

 

The only Olympus add-on finder I've used is the one for the EP2, and it was admittedly better than the Panny, but still far from giving me an is-it-live-or-is-it-memorex moment

 

I've been shooting an OMD with various R lenses, and critical focus is really easy to get - the viewfinder is a pleasure to use (for macro and telephoto especially). Focusing is easy without the need to zoom in (hate it) or focus confirmation (don't want to look at little green lights when focusing). Added to which the fact that you can focus on any part of the screen really easily is a huge benefit - no more focus and recompose stuff here.

 

The faster refresh rate and the higher resolution make a world of difference. Of course, it doesn't look as nice as a good optical finder,

 

That was my feeling too. I was at the same time disappointed and relieved. Inasmuch as the only reason I stick with Leica is for the balance of compactness and high IQ as a travel camera, had the OMD's EVF really wowed me I might have ended up selling off all my M gear

 

As far as low light is concerned I can't really imagine why one wouldn't be using an M lens with the rangefinder in low light anyway, and I'm with Marc here, one runs out of ISO long before focusing is too difficult.

 

+1

[jonoslack]

The only Olympus add-on finder I've used is the one for the EP2, and it was admittedly better than the Panny, but still far from giving me an is-it-live-or-is-it-memorex moment

 

Well - the OMD finder is better than the EP2 (at least, it feels better, which seems to say that it's not just resolution which counts). The real point is that EVFs may be 'nasty', but you get used to them quickly, and once you've practiced a bit focusing is good.

 

I find it a bit odd that all of us who've put considerable time and effort into learning how to focus well using a rangefinder expect to be able to assess an EVF in 10 minutes!

 

That was my feeling too. I was at the same time disappointed and relieved. Inasmuch as the only reason I stick with Leica is for the balance of compactness and high IQ as a travel camera, had the OMD's EVF really wowed me I might have ended up selling off all my M gear

 

 

+1

Well, I'm not selling my Leica gear - but the OMD is great with R lenses for telephoto and macro, and the sensor certainly allows the lenses to shine through. I actually like the smaller sensor and larger depth of field - not instead of full frame, but as an alternative to it.

 

all the best

[rramesh]

I have used the external finder (VF2) on the Olympus (E-PL1 and E-P3) and which Leica has now adopted on the X2. It's really poor at night and with low light.

 

I still don't believe EVF is ready for prime time on a Leica M.

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[rramesh]

The hybrid autofocus of the new canon EOS M (EVIL) is very interesting. They have embedded autofocus sensors in the APS-C sensor.