lars_bergquist Posted July 30, 2012 Share #1  Posted July 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) We think we are beginning to have a reasonable idea of the line of development followed by the 'M10' or 'M9 successor', which surely already exists in prototype form. But I want to draw attention to one feature, the presence or absence of which will be a deal maker or breaker for me and probably for some other people.  Present speculations say that the camera will have live view and a push-on EVF in the accessory shoe. (Hopefully, with a focus assist feature.) This would open up the two areas that have by tradition been closed to the rangefinder camera (and yes, I have worked extensively with the Visoflex II and III, but these have been clumsy stopgaps): long tele lenses and macro. Especially the latter area is important to me.  But – with an EVF in the shoe, all use of flash is impossible, because this is the only flash connection that the M8/M9 has. Strange to say!  In order to fully open up the macro range – and also the use of flash with lenses shorter than 28mm – the 'M10' will have to have a second flash connector, and preferably one with full TTL capability with the 'system' flashes. Something like the five-pole screw-in one that my old OM-4 had. Leica (well, Metz) will have to offer a coiled flash cord for it too. This feature is now so old that even Leica should be able to seriously contemplate its use … And by the way, even some studio photogs would want it.  Whatever Leica makes will sell, of course. Even a camera that you have to use standing on one leg and with a focusing cloth over your head, will sell. But this second flash connector can sell an extra number of units. If Leica are going to conquer a one percent or even a tenth of a percent share of the global camera market, then they have to start somewhere. And increased functionality might be a good place to start.  Gnomes of Solms – Ghosts of Wetzlar – listen to me!  The old man from the Age of Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Hi lars_bergquist, Take a look here M10: A Vital Part. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rramesh Posted July 30, 2012 Share #2 Â Posted July 30, 2012 If one looks at the direction taken with the M9 Hermes, then the days of flash are a foregone conclusion. After all isn't that one reason to purchase thef/0.95 Noctilux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 30, 2012 Share #3  Posted July 30, 2012 I have no doubt they will adequately sort the flash operation and this will be potentially an improvement functionally.  Not that I will be in the market for a 10, but the prospect of a seperate EVF fills me with fear. Anyone ever tried the one for the panasonic GF1 the most useless £175 I ever spent......  I know I am being paranoid but I don't want to watch digital TV I want to look through glass......... Maybe there will be some mechanically slick system to mechcanically change the view finder perspective (Switzerland is close guys and they know all about mechanical engineering on a small scale!) and that the connector under the flash hotshoe is related to the flash and not an EVF ?  Here's hoping Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 30, 2012 Share #4 Â Posted July 30, 2012 It's also an area of concern for me too. I use flash a lot. Â I'm hoping and imagining that the M10 has it's own dedicated EVF and not a generic Olympus one. It would have a PC Terminal and a a full hotshoe on top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share #5  Posted July 30, 2012 Yes, what will go next? The preview lever was also deleted. The finder itself?  There seems to be a number of people around here who claim that we don't need no damn finder. Real macho males keep their eyes tightly shut while they take pictures. Leica must of course cater to this important segment of the market.  But Hermès? Isn't that really a brand for cissies?  The old man from the Age of Action Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 30, 2012 Share #6 Â Posted July 30, 2012 As of the M6TTL it was already impossible to use a dedicated/TTL flash the same time as an external viewfinder, and as of the M8, impossible to use any flash the same time as an external viewfinder (not counting aftermarket gizmos, which by necessity reposition the finders suboptimally). I'm thinking it's not high on Leica's list of priorities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 30, 2012 Share #7  Posted July 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) the prospect of a seperate EVF fills me with fear. Anyone ever tried the one for the panasonic GF1 the most useless £175 I ever spent......  I've got that finder on my LX5. I like it a lot better than using the rear LCD, but that's the most I can say for it. I always use the LX5 autofocus, so the EVF is just for framing. I can't imagine using it to manually focus a Leica lens on a GF1, but I guess some people do.  Right now the state of the art in EVFs leaves much to my desire, and even if I get an M10 I wouldn't spend for the EVF. I'll just be grateful if it is an option and not a built-in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted July 30, 2012 Share #8  Posted July 30, 2012 We think we are beginning to have a reasonable idea of the line of development followed by the 'M10' or 'M9 successor' ... Oh no ... now you, too, are joining those who try to cross their bridges before they come to them   But—with an EVF in the shoe, all use of flash is impossible, because this is the only flash connection that the M8/M9 has. Strange to say! Very strange to say indeed. Who cares what the M8 or M9 have or have not when it comes to the M10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 30, 2012 Share #9 Â Posted July 30, 2012 I've got that finder on my LX5. I like it a lot better than using the rear LCD, but that's the most I can say for it. I always use the LX5 autofocus, so the EVF is just for framing. I can't imagine using it to manually focus a Leica lens on a GF1, but I guess some people do. Â Focusing a manual lens is very easy with an EVF or Live View screen. With an EVF there is no problem seeing the image pop into focus, even with the older version made for the GF1. And if you are using a lens wide open the critical focusing can be done with a magnified view of the focus point. I don't know what the fuss is about, its as if these things will only be a problem if its to do with a Leica owner, which ignores all the other camera manufacturers who are supplying perfectly workable solutions of EVF focusing. Â As for the flash fighting for the hot shoe with an EVF, wouldn't it be a better idea for the M10 to have a pop up flash like any good P&S has? Â Â Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 30, 2012 Share #10  Posted July 30, 2012 M10 to have a pop up flash like any good P&S has?  Steve  Time to wash your mouth out with soap and water I think Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 30, 2012 Share #11 Â Posted July 30, 2012 ..... and preferably one with full TTL capability with the 'system' flashes. TTL flash is a very over-rated automated system as far as I am concerned. I am more than happy to take a test shot, re-adjust and then leave well alone until the type of shot I am taking is changed. TTL is automation and suffers from all the problems that any automatic system suffers from. In my (fairly extensive) experience of using both TTL and manual flases, I am of the opinion that manual flash and digital feedback are easily as effective, and usually better in reality, than TTL flash. If an EVF takes up the hotshoe then Leica will have to fit something like a PC flash socket - although personally I still see no need for either in a rangefinder camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 30, 2012 Share #12  Posted July 30, 2012 Focusing a manual lens is very easy with an EVF or Live View screen. With an EVF there is no problem seeing the image pop into focus, even with the older version made for the GF1. And if you are using a lens wide open the critical focusing can be done with a magnified view of the focus point. I don't know what the fuss is about, its as if these things will only be a problem if its to do with a Leica owner  You may be on to something there. Most people used to the back-and-forth over-and-under of manually focusing an AF reflex are not spoiled by the quick-and-positive focusing we Leica rangefinder folk are used to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 30, 2012 Share #13 Â Posted July 30, 2012 You may be on to something there. Most people used to the back-and-forth over-and-under of manually focusing an AF reflex are not spoiled by the quick-and-positive focusing we Leica rangefinder folk are used to. Â Yeah, when the going gets dark the quick-and-positive rangefinder folk go home, everybody else increases the ISO and the EVF gain increases to compensate so its like daylight again. Â I've used Leica M's in theatre photography and in any sort of dull scene the rangefinder patch sucks for critical fast focusing unless you can find a contrast edge in the critical part of the picture. So despite the shutter noise a Nikon F was always the best low light camera with a split screen and a good fresnel patch. Its like that with EVF's, its a wonder to behold focusing an M rangefinder in good light, but a pointless exercise in making excuses for a flawed concept compared to contemporary EVF solutions. Â Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 30, 2012 Share #14  Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah, when the going gets dark the quick-and-positive rangefinder folk go home, everybody else increases the ISO and the EVF gain increases to compensate so its like daylight again.  I've used Leica M's in theatre photography and in any sort of dull scene the rangefinder patch sucks for critical fast focusing unless you can find a contrast edge in the critical part of the picture. So despite the shutter noise a Nikon F was always the best low light camera with a split screen and a good fresnel patch. Its like that with EVF's, its a wonder to behold focusing an M rangefinder in good light, but a pointless exercise in making excuses for a flawed concept compared to contemporary EVF solutions.  Steve  My experience in dark environments with an EVF is that the moment I take my eye away from the finder, my overall vision is compromised because that eye's pupil is constricted until it adjusts, which for me is almost half a minute. I have difficulty with oncoming headlights driving at night also. OTOH even when I was young I found the Nikon F screen awful in dim light even with fast lenses. The part about finding a contrast edge in the critical part of the picture to focus a Leica is well-taken, and perhaps an EVF is better in that regard. However, while not every shot needs to be critically focused (in fact I tend to zone-focus quite a bit with any type of camera), every shot does need to be critically composed, and for that I find the EVF miserable. It makes me feel as though I'm watching the subject on CCTV, and it takes away something from the connection between me and my subject, whether it's a human subject or a landscape. It's a case of technology inserting a barrier between my brain and the act of photographing. A very personal thing, which obviously does not affect everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 30, 2012 Share #15 Â Posted July 30, 2012 It's a case of technology inserting a barrier between my brain and the act of photographing. A very personal thing, which obviously does not affect everyone. Â I've never inserted the camera between myself and the subject as a deciding factor, the camera has always been a means to an end, not the reason to make the photograph. To be honest I couldn't care less what the image through the camera looks like, just so long as I can compose something well enough. When I look through the camera viewfinder I already have the image of what I want in my minds eye fixed and settled, so I'm not swayed by how Nikon, Leica, or an EVF render the viewfinder image. Â Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 30, 2012 Share #16  Posted July 30, 2012 , the camera has always been a means to an end, not the reason to make the photograph.  Exactly! Which is why I'm not the least bit impressed by technology if it doesn't facilitate that end, let alone distract me from it, which is the case with existing EVFs.  To be honest I couldn't care less what the image through the camera looks like, just so long as I can compose something well enough. What if you couldn't? That's my situation with an EVF.  When I look through the camera viewfinder I already have the image of what I want in my minds eye fixed and settled  Sometimes I emcounter subjects static enough for that, but many times I encounter spontaneous moments...and that's when the lag and drag of an EVF is especially irritating.  But who knows, one day professional photographers may come to agree with your viewpoint and manufacturers will offer EVFs on their professional-oriented cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted July 30, 2012 Share #17  Posted July 30, 2012 Hello Ramchand,  Not the only 1.  For some people the issue is: Pushing the envelope.  Not the solution to a given problem.  You will sometimes find that the people asking for larger apertures are the same 1's who are also asking for higher ISO's, higher shutter speeds, both sync'd & unsync'd, & longer shutter speeds. All @ the same time.  Best Regards,  Michael  btw: F 0.95 is only 1/7th of a stop faster than F1.0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 31, 2012 Share #18 Â Posted July 31, 2012 Ok, the 500th wish list thread...or so it seems. Â I'm not immune to the game. So, if it's functionality we're after, I'll take weather sealing any day before some flash feature. Leica film Ms were always known for being rugged; digital ended that with all the necessary electronics. Â And, yes, that would mean the need for some new weather sealed lenses. Fine...even more sales opportunities...I'd buy a couple new ones just for that. Â Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted July 31, 2012 Share #19 Â Posted July 31, 2012 You know you could have your right eye replaced with an M-mount and a USB 3.0 port placed on the left side of your brain. Best way to capture photos and have them saved to a memory card for printing. Â Questions: Â Will the Noctilux be too heavy for your head? Will you need to spend one year in the Solms hospital? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted July 31, 2012 Share #20 Â Posted July 31, 2012 Hello Ramchand, Â Answers: Â 1. No. This version, the F 0.92 Noctilux, is filled w/ Helium. It floats when not attached. Â 2. Not to worry. This model is covered by Worldwide Passport. All costs covered. Â Best Regards, Â Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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