Irritation

[lct]

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Most serious cameras can be used in manual mode if need be but digital Ms are not completely manual anymore.

[swamiji]

Most serious cameras can be used in manual mode if need be but digital Ms are not completely manual anymore.

 

Yes since the M4-P that is true. The question of Manuel is relative. Changing the aperture on a M is easy, on a DSLR, not so. How many cameras have shutter speed so convent a place? A small number.

 

It seems watching many threads on this forum, there are those who want to ditch the remaining manual features.

[lct]

Put a manual lens on most DSLRs and they can be used entirely manually if need be. They still need a battery though. BTW the M4-P was 100% manual indeed. Its only batteries were those of the optional Leicameter MR and Leica Winder M4-2. Just a reminder for our young readers.

[swamiji]

Put a manual lens on most DSLRs and they can be used entirely manually if need be..

 

And the aperture can be adjusted manually? Or electronicly?

 

Yes M5, M6 and on took batteries. It was not until the M7 that the camera had a dependency (except for two shutter speeds), but in this digital age the M9 is as manuel as it gets... Which of course is a compromise.

[andybarton]

Just a reminder for our young readers.

 

Do we have any?

 

[swamiji]

. Its only batteries were those of the optional Leicameter MR and Leica Winder M4-2. Just a reminder for our young readers.

 

And people complain about the shutter sound of the M9. The Leica Winder M4-2 is horrible, I am surprised that you can get any good shots at all with its massive vibration and it's loud kachunk sound!

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Andy,

 

Actually, we have our share.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[lct]

And the aperture can be adjusted manually? Or electronicly?...

Manually with manual lenses. R lenses work like that on DSLR bodies.

[Peter H]

To continue the P&S v M9 discussion, there is one outstanding and critically important feature of a P&S camera that makes it a very much better camera than an M9 for very many people: the price.

[swamiji]

Manually with manual lenses. R lenses work like that on DSLR bodies.

 

I was thinking more in the box, using modern Nikon/Canon lenses, but yes R glass does provide for manual aperture, but does not provide for auto-focus or image stabilization. As I understand with Canon bodies, you can use an adapter, but Nikon you have to adapt the lens... is this true?

[swamiji]

To continue the P&S v M9 discussion, there is one outstanding and critically important feature of a P&S camera that makes it a very much better camera than an M9 for very many people: the price.

 

Yep thats true... it's certainly too expensive for many, especially students. If you can't afford it, everything else is mute. But if you can accept film, there are much cheaper alternatives. In time, used M9's will come down in price as future models are released, as M8's are starting to now.

[lct]

Just a reminder for our young readers.

Do we have any?

The others cannot read anymore.

[CalArts 99]

The biggest part of my disagreement is the philosophy that spawns it. While I certainly agree there is no single camera perfect for every task, and the "M" certainly has it's limitations. Your argument is simply to cater to the beginner. Agreed the "M" is not a beginners camera, but beginners do learn to use them. I feel they should be congratulated, and encouraged. I think it is counter productive to recite the mantra "DSLR's are better because they are easer to use" in a group dedicated to improving there photographic skills with the "M".

 

Just to make a correction, "DSLR's are better because they are easer [sic] to use" was never said here by me nor in the original post of Steve's. I believe he said the automated camera is indeed simpler to use (by the nature of its automation) unless one knows how to use a manual camera. And I said: "A computer is actually better and much simpler than a slide rule if you don't know how to properly use a slide rule."

 

And that was the point. Nothing more and nothing less. My 'argument' isn't about 'catering to a beginner,' either. Established artists use the tool that works for them, whether it be a manual tool or an automated tool.

 

Making images isn't just about a 'hobby of the gear' but also about using an appropriate tool that produces a result. Are we making images or playing with the tools? Sure, we need to have an understanding of the process otherwise it simply becomes hit or miss. But again, there are exceptionally skilled individuals who know little about the tools or the process and only pick a tool that works best for them, fully automated or fully manual. They have produced extraordinary images that will remain with us forever as a culture. It's what is between their ears that really counts. And any "laziness" comes from the person, not the object.

 

I think what this is really about is the old phenomenon that if one isn't up to snuff with the hobbyist craftsman's knowledge of the tools and processes, that they have no business being in the trade. I remember when digital first came on the scene and folks went into a tirade about photography all of a sudden being too simple and that digital had no 'integrity' (whatever that means.) In the meantime a whole new generation of image makers were doing some incredible work with the new blasphemous technology. What it really meant was that the old guard had lost a bit of something they had always assumed was their right to possess, based on their earned skills. I'm sure it kind of hurt when people were making impressive imagery from such a 'convenient' technology.

 

Tools change. They are all good if put to good use. Beyond that they are simply tools. The M is not something special outside of it being a particular tool. It's a great camera with excellent lenses. If it motivates people to use their brains, then that's all good. But skills don't come from a particular tool, they come from the person. If there was no Leica M ever existing on the planet and all we had known were automated cameras, there would still be a rich history of incredible images.

 

To be able to shoot completely manual puts you in an elite group. Especially in an automated, DSLR world. You had better get used to it.

 

I'm not sure what that means and I'm not sure what exactly it is that I had "better get used to."

 

fwiw, I've been invested in photography since around 1970 and hold the MFA degree in Photography and Media (see some of my previous posts.) I teach photography in an art department at a university. I don't consider myself part of an elite group just because I can use a manual camera. And I certainly don't want to be in an elite group anyway. What good would that actually do me? I'll use anything I can get my hands on providing it gives me the results I'm looking for. I have no qualms about using an iPhone or anything that works.

[swamiji]

I'm not sure what that means and I'm not sure what exactly it is that I had "better get used to."

 

 

Where ever I go, and shoot with any manual camera, others put me in to a separate category. It could be my IIIf or my Rolleiflex, M or what ever. I see other photographers also proclaimed as elite because they dared to shoot with a manual camera (Hassy). I don't have any choice in the matter, and the more I deny it the worse it becomes. They just think I am being humble. Maybe it's just China, and it's annoying but I have learned to ignore it.

 

As far as the rest, as I said, I will agree to disagree, and leave at that.