gyoung Posted June 3, 2012 Share #81 Posted June 3, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I worked in a photo store in Montreal from late 66-mid 69 I dealt with the d&p every day, about a dozen to two dozen films. Of course we didn't have tourist sales much, and weren't the biggest in town. By then colour neg was good enough for 6x4 prints from 35mm for snapshots and colour plus mass processing in automated machines had started an explosion of amateur interest, fueled by good Japanese cameras, typically rangefinders at reasonable prices. This was a very different market from the early 60s where what mass market for snapshots there was was in b&w Film sales in general went through the roof then, for a market that is now rightly all digital, but keen amateurs, and pros, benefited greatly from the volumes. What we need is actual sales figures for 35mm from, say '64 to compare with current, heaven knows if/how we could get them Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Hi gyoung, Take a look here What will happen to film Leicas. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Messsucherkamera Posted June 3, 2012 Share #82 Posted June 3, 2012 I just got rid of my M7 - film is just too expensive to process here in Aus. You could have moved instead, you know... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messsucherkamera Posted June 3, 2012 Share #83 Posted June 3, 2012 Well Kaufmann wasn't saying Leica will be into selling film cameras long term was he. This is how future controversial announcements are gradually fed into the psyche. First the general seed of doubt about film is sowed. Then in two or three years time he can say 'remember what I said about film, and its not looking good....' , and then of course the final announcement at Photokina 2016, buried in amongst news of another new EVIL system, 'film camera production will stop'. It is the same massaging of the message that all large companies do who want to change course and know it will disappoint a lot of customers. Of course industry journalists and users will point out to Leica that film is alive and well, but Leica will say that specially commissioned survey's show the opposite. It is Leica's ball to play with how they like, but I think more than a few photographers may start to get fed up with the game playing. And once the 'Leica aren't the company they used to be' mantra is started it will spread to any digital offering, so they will have a bigger job than they imagined on their hands. Steve The above brings up a question. Is Leica trying to slowly herd all Leica users into the digital realm? Some think so. The prices of parts needed to repair film M cameras has reached geosynchronous orbit. An example is the price of the rewind crank for my M4-P which was recently repaired. These cranks used to go for under $20US not that long ago. Leica now charges $95US for them. Same exact rewind crank. Herding or not, $95US for a rewind crank is an outrage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted June 3, 2012 Share #84 Posted June 3, 2012 I also live in Australia. Just got 10 rolls of Provia 100F plus postage from B&H for under 100$ Aus. To process and mount around 20$ Aus. Over one year a spend around 500 to 600 dollars Aus that will give me around 14 years to equal the cost of a Leica M9. Working presently I own a M7, 2 R7's, R8 and an R9 so it's obvious I am ok in the film Camera department. With my Photography I am very selective in what I shoot with slide film as they're keepers, So to get the rest of the coverage I use my toy Digicam the Canon G9, and when I get a little more serious I then use the Canon 600D with my R lenses. With me, my photography is FILM as Primary and with Digital or electronic imaging is secondary. Long live that wonderful medium called FILM. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 3, 2012 Share #85 Posted June 3, 2012 The above brings up a question. Is Leica trying to slowly herd all Leica users into the digital realm? Some think so. The prices of parts needed to repair film M cameras has reached geosynchronous orbit. An example is the price of the rewind crank for my M4-P which was recently repaired. These cranks used to go for under $20US not that long ago. Leica now charges $95US for them. Same exact rewind crank. Herding or not, $95US for a rewind crank is an outrage. hmmm.. Have you had a look at the repair prices of digital Leicas lately? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 4, 2012 Share #86 Posted June 4, 2012 Originally Posted by akiralx I just got rid of my M7 - film is just too expensive to process here in Aus. You could have moved instead, you know... I just bought one again after selling my first one to help finance my M8 at the time. ;-) Fuji Pro slide film is ridiculously expensive here (Brisbane) AUD 21 to an astonishing AUD37.50 for a 36 exposure (plus AUD 15.50 dev and mount) I added up the new purchase price now of the film in my freezer and it's a lot more than the as new M7 I got! I don't know how the Australian Fujifilm distributor sleeps at night BHPhoto in New York lists that AUD37.50 film at USD10.99 (our dollars about parity currently) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 4, 2012 Share #87 Posted June 4, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica will offer film M cameras for as long as film is available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 4, 2012 Share #88 Posted June 4, 2012 Leica will offer film M cameras for as long as film is available. Bollocks. With every format it's always been camera production that ends first. Film remains available for years if not decades longer. Leica will offer film M cameras for as long as they consider the demand is sufficient, and as long after that as they allow sentiment to outweigh profitability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeman Posted June 4, 2012 Share #89 Posted June 4, 2012 There are a lot of people out there who are being unduly pessimistic about the future of film and also a lot who are living in cloud-cuckoo land in a situation of inevitable decline. Whatever happened to balanced judgement? The reality of the situation for me is that there is now not a single film processing lab within 100 miles of where I live and both film and the quality postal labs are getting more expensive every month. It is getting prohibitively expensive for me to use film and I can have shots from my M9 published before I even get film results returned to me in the post from the lab. Ivan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted June 4, 2012 Share #90 Posted June 4, 2012 Leica will offer film M cameras for as long as they consider the demand is sufficient, and as long after that as they allow sentiment to outweigh profitability. And clearly, from Dr K's statements (and the pressures of the PE stakeholders) that won't be for too long, if at all. But I go back to what I said in an earlier post, the film world is far from Leica-centric. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 4, 2012 Share #91 Posted June 4, 2012 Huh? Where did he say anything about his feelings - sentiments about film? And where did you find any indication of the intentions of other shareholders? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted June 4, 2012 Share #92 Posted June 4, 2012 Do I hear a Black T-shirt somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 4, 2012 Share #93 Posted June 4, 2012 Leica will offer film M cameras for as long as film is available. Since there are collectors who don't use the cameras, maybe they'll offer film cameras long after film stops being available. This sounds like Leica to me and they can market it as a camera for many lifetimes. This kind of reminds me of an episode of "Curb Your Enthusiasm." Larry and his wife were going to re-state their marriage vows. She wanted them to say "for all eternity." He complained and said he only married her until "death us do part" and had other plans for eternity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayewing Posted June 4, 2012 Share #94 Posted June 4, 2012 It looks as if market forces will result in the eventual demise of film. However the influence of a small but enthusiastic band of film users could delay the process. In the field of audio, analogue vinyl records were nearly killed off by digital CDs. The efforts of audiophiles who believe that analogue sound recording is better than clinical digital have succeeded in keeping vinyl records alive as well as breathing new life into the manufacture of thermionic valves (tubes) for the analogue amplifiers necessary reproduce the music by analogue means. Are there enough determined film lovers to achieve a similar result? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted June 4, 2012 Share #95 Posted June 4, 2012 I cant beleive M7 and MP production is actually very high, and even if they did stop tomorrow there are enough bodies out there, especially pre M7 to keep any conceivable number of film users going for a millenia, with parts that can be made by a skilled blacksmith. A couple of mechanical Ms will beep most of us going for a lifetime, Nikon stopped film camera production (apart form the F4?) years ago yet there is no shortage on the secondhand market and prices are not high. As for processing, when we first did C41 and E6 for students we used 3 gallon or smaller tank lines in a water jacket for temperature control with stainless steel baskets to hold the reels, you could knock one of those up in no time in your garage, it doesn't need major investment in auto machinery and long runs of film to work Gerry The F6 is still in production. Or has it just stopped? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted June 4, 2012 Share #96 Posted June 4, 2012 The recent interview of Dr. Kaufmann left me wondering. What will happen to all those film Leicas around the world, when film - in 5 yrs more or less according to him - will not be around any more? How many film Leicas are out there anyway? Hundred of thousands I would guess, probably most of them in perfect order. I suspect that if the narrative about film being already an obsolete technology takes foot, more and more labs will abandon film processing, resulting in an even shorter lifespan for emulsions. There is a lot to worry. I'am a little bit lost. Shouldn't this threat be in the film forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 4, 2012 Share #97 Posted June 4, 2012 Umm not really, as it refers to the introduction of the MM. A bit of a dilemma where to put it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 4, 2012 Share #98 Posted June 4, 2012 Are there enough determined film lovers to achieve a similar result? What you are talking about is the viability of small scale production for film and having processing facilities available, all at a cost that people are willing to pay. Unfortunately as volume goes down, costs go up. B/w film should be no problem to keep in small quantity production with home processing. And in the absolute worst case scenario way out into the distant future, people can revert to glass plates, daguerreotypes, etc. It comes down to if Kodak some day gives up on C41 and Fuji gives up on E6 and C41. Will anyone be able to step in and make these films? (Processing chemicals are probably not as hard for a small firm to make and at worst C41 and E6 can be processed in small or large tanks.) To answer this we really need an expert from Fuji or Kodak who understands the production process. And we don't have such a person. A few months ago I did have discussion about film with a friend who had worked at Kodak for 30 years. (Film testing and other jobs.) I didn't ask him this kind of thing in detail but he did tell me that he suggested to his bosses years ago that they work on ways to scale down production to keep some emulsions available. But it would have taken an investment in new equipment. The way he said it works is that emulsion labs have equipment to make small "research" batches of film. I forgot if he said this is around a gallon at a time or maybe larger. But it is a small amount. Then there is another facility that can scale this up to something like 20 or 50 gallon batches and coat it. (Based on my memory.) These would produce test rolls and sheets. Final production is on a much larger scale in the range of 20,000 gallons. So if Kodak and Fuji stopped making E6 or C41 films, could someone hire a few chemists and technicians, get some of the small facility test and research emulsion making and coating gear and make these films? (Or build similar machines.) Well Kodak and Fuji will have no use for them. Keep in mind it is one thing to make a film emulsion and another thing to make one that is accurate, consistent, and with few defects. And I don't know what goes into making the chemicals and dyes needed for color film. There are a lot of "ifs" that keep it from being simple and straight forward like pressing a vinyl disk or making a vacuum tube. (Valve.) I guess anything is possible but will the end result be in demand and affordable to those who want it? (I can't see paying for the new Polaroid stuff today but some do.) The other thing my friend told me is some of the equipment is being used by other companies at the former Kodak facilities to coat things other than film emulsions. So there may be some kind of access to coating equipment but it needs to be done in the dark of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted June 4, 2012 Share #99 Posted June 4, 2012 Umm not really, as it refers to the introduction of the MM. A bit of a dilemma where to put it... I understand. The MM is giving me some dilemmas too. First dilemma: how long will it take before I trade my perfect MP for a MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted June 4, 2012 Share #100 Posted June 4, 2012 The F6 is still in production. Or has it just stopped? I think its still listed, along with some manual focus lenses, which means there are some still in the warehouse, it would be interesting to know when they actually made the last batch! Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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