What will happen to film Leicas

[nikau]

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Some time ago, the largest newspaper in my hometown had an article about the photo-film and its future.

 

One of the photo retailers in the city said that they will sell and process film as long as it is possible to obtain parts for existing photo-film processing machinery.

 

When these machines are no longer possible to repair at a reasonable cost, the film will in practice be stone dead.

 

It is therefore the remaining life of my photo-dealers processing machine that decides when my film-based Leica ends up as a decorative object on a shelf.

 

That's my worry. The last two C41 places I used both needed to make expensive repairs to their machines and both decided that this was the time to get out of film processing. One of them now "sends it out" somewhere and the turnaround is over a week for develop only.

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[earleygallery]

But it was basically what he meant no? Didn't he declare the end of film? The sentiment is the same really.

 

I would possibly allow the poor chap some slack. That T shirt was far too tight for him, probably cutting of his circulation!

[mjh]

The recent interview of Dr. Kaufmann left me wondering. What will happen to all those film Leicas around the world, when film - in 5 yrs more or less according to him - will not be around any more?

Obviously they wouldn’t be much use then, except as collector’s items. But that’s nothing Leica could control or influence. Leica stance used to be that film Leicas would be manufactured as long as their was sufficient demand, and as far as I know this hasn’t changed. I guess that at some point demand for new film Leicas will dry up even when film will still be obtainable somehow, but that remains to be seen. Personally I think that Dr. Kaufmann’s prediction is overly optimistic insofar as I expect all the major vendors to withdraw from the film business even earlier than he predicted. While film will probably continue to be available for the forseeable future – at higher prices, with less options to choose from, and with some hunting around –, for all practical purposes film is dead already in that it doesn’t play a major role in photography anymore.

[earleygallery]

Obviously they wouldn’t be much use then, except as collector’s items. But that’s nothing Leica could control or influence. Leica stance used to be that film Leicas would be manufactured as long as their was sufficient demand, and as far as I know this hasn’t changed. I guess that at some point demand for new film Leicas will dry up even when film will still be obtainable somehow, but that remains to be seen. Personally I think that Dr. Kaufmann’s prediction is overly optimistic insofar as I expect all the major vendors to withdraw from the film business even earlier than he predicted. While film will probably continue to be available for the forseeable future – at higher prices, with less options to choose from, and with some hunting around –, for all practical purposes film is dead already in that it doesn’t play a major role in photography anymore.

 

ROFLMAO!!!!

[akiralx]

I just got rid of my M7 - film is just too expensive to process here in Aus.

[xalo]

As far as processing is concerned, it even became cheaper in my preferred colour lab over the past nine years or so and remained stable in the b&w place I use.

 

Alexander

[jaapv]

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But it was basically what he meant no? Didn't he declare the end of film? The sentiment is the same really.

 

I would possibly allow the poor chap some slack. That T shirt was far too tight for him, probably cutting of his circulation!

Not really. In the context of presenting the Monochrom he signaled that film was declining and probably would be completely marginalized in five years. I have a feeling he may be right for color film. After the movie industry pulls out, which is happening right now, the infrastructure will not be sustainable. I would be very surprised if negative film would survive the next decade and the future of slidefilm is unfortunately rather bleak as well imo. I have done DIY color processing myself, and it is just too much hassle.

Regarding B&W, I feel he was too pessimistic, as that lends itself to small-scale industry and home processing.

It feel far too much has been read into a fairly innocuous marketing remark and that the level of defensiveness with (some) film users is unreasonably high. Having an opinion about a trend is not the same as condemning users of a product.

For myself, I couldn't care less whether the capturing medium of my photographs is silver or silicon based. As it is for me digital works best nowadays. That does not preclude others finding the silver halide process more suited to their preferences.

[pico]

As far as processing is concerned, it even became cheaper in my preferred colour lab over the past nine years or so and remained stable in the b&w place I use.

 

Alexander

 

I pay 75 cents per roll for developing in C1, either 120 or 35mm. Crazy cheap.

[NZDavid]

I just got rid of my M7 - film is just too expensive to process here in Aus.

 

Expensive here, too. Slide film here is upwards of $20 a roll to buy -- only $10 from B&H but you have to factor in shipping. E6 processing is about $30 per roll. Scanning is another cost. So film really is mostly for special occasions now.

[CalArts 99]

It feel far too much has been read into a fairly innocuous marketing remark and that the level of defensiveness with (some) film users is unreasonably high. Having an opinion about a trend is not the same as condemning users of a product.

 

Exactly.

[AlanG]

Remember Kodachrome? Remember how we used to send our films off to be processed - in my case to another country - and wait a couple of weeks for the results? Remember how that wasn't a problem?

 

 

It may not have been a problem for you but it was for Kodachrome and is a reason why E6 took over for pros who were the main users of transparency film.

[earleygallery]

It may not have been a problem for you but it was for Kodachrome and is a reason why E6 took over for pros who were the main users of transparency film.

 

Many pro's shot Kodachrome too did they not? E6 was better for rush jobs, and digital is better still.

 

I'm talking in the context of the typical Leica user who isn't a professional and can wait for processing.

 

My point is that if using colour film/E6 means sending film away to be processed, is that really such a big deal? I'm fortunate to have quite a few labs of all sorts within easy reach I know, but I do still use some postal services too.

[Sp12]

Disappear. The time of digital has come. Film shall diminish and go into the East.

[AlanG]

Many pro's shot Kodachrome too did they not? E6 was better for rush jobs, and digital is better still.

 

I'm talking in the context of the typical Leica user who isn't a professional and can wait for processing.

 

My point is that if using colour film/E6 means sending film away to be processed, is that really such a big deal? I'm fortunate to have quite a few labs of all sorts within easy reach I know, but I do still use some postal services too.

 

I understand what you are saying and it is not a big deal for some enthusiasts however the speed and convenience of E6 processing moved many pros (and others) away from Kodachrome necessitating the steady closure of Kodachrome labs. Consider that Kodachrome 120 was introduced but never caught on as most 120 shooters used E6.

 

When E6 came out it was quite improved over E3 and E4. This alone moved some people from Kodachrome especially with the range of films that appeared from Velvia to high speed. But at the same time mini labs arose and many consumers moved from slides to color prints (C41).

 

This left the vast majority of transparency film being used by the pros who shot it for reproduction. (As opposed to pros who were wedding and portrait shooters.) They also shot MF and LF which was not available in Kodachrome. (Other than 120 for a while.) Pro labs with dip and dunk E6 gear emerged to market to these users with fast turnaround (typically 3 hours and 1 hour rush.) And they offered special services such as clip tests and push pull processing.

 

A lot of pros moved over to Fuji E6 film starting in the early 80s and Kodak countered by improving their E-6 films. Kodachrome was still used by some but was losing applications. Many stock shooters preferred the look of Velvia and E6 in general was certainly not thought of as only for rush work. The ability to have the film clip tested viewed and process adjusted in a short period of time was a very common procedure that was not possible with Kodachrome.

[lars_bergquist]

Film Leicas have been kept alive to a large extent by the fact that at first, the changeover to digital had a slower start in Asia, while at the same time economic development was strong there.

 

But inevitably, Leica will bring out a special edition of the last 100 MP cameras, and they will be sold out in a frenzy to collectors who will put them in glass cases. And a couple of years later, the same thing will happen to the M7.

 

It is difficult to prophesy about the future of film. Film photography in general, not only colour film, is dependent on a commercial infrastructure. Even if you have a working camera, and a darkroom, you will need not only film but also chemicals and also printing paper – unless you are content to cut the process chain short and scan your negatives. But who will build the scanners? Who will adapt their software to ever new computer system versions, even new platforms?

 

I think there will be suppliers, but availability will be spotty. 127 film, for Baby Rolleis and their copies, remained accessible to the dedicated for decades after the cameras had ceased production, but this was manufactured on the same technological base (base stock, emulsion production, coating) as other film. This whole base is eroding fast.

 

I suspect that in the future, film photography will be done with view cameras. Cut film will survive roll film. Or people will go back to wet collodion ...

 

The old man from the Silver Age

[stunsworth]

ROFLMAO!!!!

 

Michael's correct, film doesn't play a major role any more. That's not the same as saying it doesn't play a role.

[250swb]

I was there. I cannot recall him saying that.

 

Well Kaufmann wasn't saying Leica will be into selling film cameras long term was he.

 

This is how future controversial announcements are gradually fed into the psyche. First the general seed of doubt about film is sowed. Then in two or three years time he can say 'remember what I said about film, and its not looking good....' , and then of course the final announcement at Photokina 2016, buried in amongst news of another new EVIL system, 'film camera production will stop'. It is the same massaging of the message that all large companies do who want to change course and know it will disappoint a lot of customers.

 

Of course industry journalists and users will point out to Leica that film is alive and well, but Leica will say that specially commissioned survey's show the opposite.

 

It is Leica's ball to play with how they like, but I think more than a few photographers may start to get fed up with the game playing. And once the 'Leica aren't the company they used to be' mantra is started it will spread to any digital offering, so they will have a bigger job than they imagined on their hands.

 

Steve

[cocker]

Well Kaufmann wasn't saying Leica will be into selling film cameras long term was he.

 

This is how future controversial announcements are gradually fed into the psyche. First the general seed of doubt about film is sowed. Then in two or three years time he can say 'remember what I said about film, and its not looking good....' , and then of course the final announcement at Photokina 2016, buried in amongst news of another new EVIL system, 'film camera production will stop'. It is the same massaging of the message that all large companies do who want to change course and know it will disappoint a lot of customers.

 

Of course industry journalists and users will point out to Leica that film is alive and well, but Leica will say that specially commissioned survey's show the opposite.

 

It is Leica's ball to play with how they like, but I think more than a few photographers may start to get fed up with the game playing. And once the 'Leica aren't the company they used to be' mantra is started it will spread to any digital offering, so they will have a bigger job than they imagined on their hands.

 

Steve

 

An extremely well made point Steve. That is exactly what happens - including what you predict in the last paragraph.

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[jaapv]

No. He was not saying that. He was introducing a digital camera, so that would have been totally OT. But the last time the subject came up not too long ago, Leica’s official position was that they would make film cameras for as long as there was demand. And nobody retracted that official statement. I cannot see where all the making mountains out of molehills in this thread is coming from.

And to be blunt, even if Leica decided that the building of film cameras were no longer economically feasible, I still cannot see where all the moral outrage is coming from. Leica is a company dedicated to building optical instruments and making money out of it. It is not a religion. Producing film cameras yes or no is not even a statement about the artistic validity of film photography. It would be a statement about err... production. .

As it is, the fact that they are still building these cameras despite the small numbers being sold tells us more about Leica’s dedication than all the hyped-up exegesis here.

[Rolo]

You'll recognise the end of film when the secondhand value of Leica lenses plummets due to over supply.

 

Leica's lens backlog will disappear, then the Leica dealer network will collapse. Inevitably, Leica will become a mail order operation, before finally shutting shop.

 

Their epitaph will be, "We were always dependent on film, we just forgot how much. The many hundreds of thousands of film cameras kept our workshops and lens production lines alive. Deciding to make only Hermes editions of the digital M, from the M14 onwards alienated us from our customer base. Dr Kaufman will roll in his grave".