M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #121 Posted May 31, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) cut the guy some slack. Let's all cut each other some slack. This thread isn't even ultimately about Kaufmann as a person, or what he likes to wear, but about a company and its message. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Hi M9reno, Take a look here AP interview with Dr Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lars_bergquist Posted May 31, 2012 Share #122 Posted May 31, 2012 Let's all cut each other some slack. This thread isn't even ultimately about Kaufmann as a person, or what he likes to wear, but about a company and its message. I agree completely. But there's a difference between friendly ribbing, on one side, and mobbing, on the other. I feel that we all think Herr Doktor Kaufmann has done a great job saving a derelict company that we would have hated to see go down the drain. Nobody here has anything personal against the Herr Doktor, on the contrary. I also suspect that he is not the most easy mobbing target around. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #123 Posted May 31, 2012 I agree, Lars, but please define mobbing for me? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 31, 2012 Share #124 Posted May 31, 2012 Leica could (should?) partner with one of the many European small film manufacturers and release Leica branded film. It might be identical to the Rollei or Efke films, but that doesn't matter. It would show support for the many people who still enjoy using their film cameras. They could also badge engineer one of the new Plustek scanners. It would cost them nothing, not detract from their digital offers, but send out a clear signal. If ultimately, film does die, then sobeit. It won't be Leica's fault Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 31, 2012 Share #125 Posted May 31, 2012 a company makes a product that an awful lot of potential buyers think has no future because of supply of a vital ingredient, the company making the product needs to disabuse that perception. So Dr Kaufmann has either put his foot in his mouth by saying film is dead or dying, which it clearly isn't, or his agenda is to kill off the film camera product line by making it appear so. But assuming he's not trying to kill the film cameras off, and it was an ill informed gaff, Leica need to build the perception that film has a future, by promoting the supply of film, making it easy, giving people the confidence to buy a new camera. They need to say 'look, here is some film to use in our camera's', not leave people to make up their own minds after ten years of constant contrary propaganda. Lomography has turned film into a large niche industry against the tide. And the sad fact right now is that it is somebody with a Lomo camera and a bag of film who knows more about the supply of film, and has a more informed perception of its future, than Dr Kaufmann and many people on this forum. Steve There is, of course, an alternative - the future isn't film, and film cameras don't feature large in the future of Leica. The truth of the matter is that nothing would be better for Leica than a strong future in film. No R&D, and they have all the parts - perfect, and profitable. Dr Kaufmann's responsibility, and strong personal interest is the future of his company. Compared to what he bought in the first place, seems he's doing a good job, don't you think? Where did he get that tee-shirt again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted May 31, 2012 Share #126 Posted May 31, 2012 I agree, Lars, but please define mobbing for me? Bullying. It's an extremely rare example of a 'swedishism' in Lars' otherwise faultless English. Bullying in Swedish is 'mobbning'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #127 Posted May 31, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bullying. Thanks, that's what I thought. I then take Lars' last point as hypothetical, as I am confident no such behaviour exists in this civilised and well-moderated forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted May 31, 2012 Share #128 Posted May 31, 2012 Thanks, that's what I thought. I then take Lars' last point as hypothetical, as I am confident no such behaviour exists in this civilised and well-moderated forum. Bullying is a strong word in English. The Swedish word can be nuanced in ways the English doesn't convey. As for Dr Kaufmann - my personal opinion is that an owner of a company selling sweets should not go around saying sugar is bad for you. I'm amazed that anyone disagrees with this, but some people seem to think he descended from a mountain bearing tablets of stone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 31, 2012 Share #129 Posted May 31, 2012 When a gaggle of e.g. crows attack and harass a larger bird of prey, the behaviour is commonly described in English technical literature as 'mobbing'. So I think the word is apposite. I am fully aware of the difference of nuances between the expressions. The old man who learned the King's English (George VI's, to be exact) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 31, 2012 Share #130 Posted May 31, 2012 As for Dr Kaufmann - my personal opinion is that an owner of a company selling sweets should not go around saying sugar is bad for you. In the UK this practice is known as doing a "Ratner" (anyone interested can look up Gerald Ratner on Google). That said, I don't think this incident is remotely comparable. In fact, bearing in mind the amount of interest the Leica marketing people have shown in the film cameras in recent years (they sometimes don't even feature in the M system catalogue), I wouldn't be surprised if Dr Kaufmann was actually unaware the company still made film cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #131 Posted May 31, 2012 Thanks, plasticman. And I think we can agree that those of us who complain do so because we care passionately about Leica in particular and photography in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 31, 2012 Share #132 Posted May 31, 2012 When a gaggle of e.g. crows attack and harrass a larger bird of prey, the behaviour is commonly described in English technical literature as 'mobbing'. Yes, that behaviour is indeed known as mobbing in English (though I've no idea why you think it is restricted to "technical literature"). Incidentally, it is a murder of crows. A gaggle describes a group of non-flying geese. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted May 31, 2012 Share #133 Posted May 31, 2012 When a gaggle of e.g. crows attack and harass a larger bird of prey The difference is that in that case it would be the larger bird of prey who wore black! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted May 31, 2012 Share #134 Posted May 31, 2012 When a gaggle of e.g. crows attack and harass a larger bird of prey, the behaviour is commonly described in English technical literature as 'mobbing'. So I think the word is apposite. I am fully aware of the difference of nuances between the expressions. The old man who learned the King's English (George VI's, to be exact) Your English is always impeccable, Lars. My apologies for butting-in unnecessarily. My discomfort with Leica's behavior is that the leadership often seem both star-struck and also childishly eager to follow what they perceive to be the 'in crowd'. Right now the in crowd are presumably corrupt officials in emerging economies and billionaire gangsters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 31, 2012 Share #135 Posted May 31, 2012 Yes, that behaviour is indeed known as mobbing in English (though I've no idea why you think it is restricted to "technical literature"). I do not presume that is restricted to naturalist (birdwatching etc.) literature. But the fact that it is used there in a precise sense says a lot. I think that the expression 'a murder of crows' says a lot about Anglo-Saxon attitudes to this interesting bird. We Swedes do not hate or despise them. They are remarkably intelligent, very successful (with its related species) across the globe and do not inconvenience us the least. Why is the eating of our road kill more despicable than our killing of it? The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 31, 2012 Share #136 Posted May 31, 2012 My discomfort with Leica's behavior is that the leadership often seem both star-struck and also childishly eager to follow what they perceive to be the 'in crowd'. Right now the in crowd are presumably corrupt officials in emerging economies and billionaire gangsters. When Emperor Vespasian laid a tax on the public conveniences in Rome, his son Titus expressed qualms. Vespasian's reply was: Tite, non olet. "Titus, money do not smell". And to this day, the French call a public urinoar a vespasienne. It's all right with me (a) as long as you do not sell things that they can use to repress or kill people with – which Swedish companies are doing in this moment – and ( that you do not allow these regimes or personages to degrade your own behaviour. A Limited Edition Leica M9, whatever we think of it, is a fairly innocuous piece of male jewelry. And should the behaviour of Hitler and his murderous henchmen have prevented the rest of the world from purchasing the Leica cameras that the nice Mr Ernst Leitz II offered us in the 1930's? That argument would in fact have been quite a bit stronger. But not strong enough, I think. And I did buy Kodachrome and Tri-X film right through the Vietnam war, which I protested against in the streets. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 31, 2012 Share #137 Posted May 31, 2012 I think that the expression 'a murder of crows' says a lot about Anglo-Saxon attitudes to this interesting bird. It's an archaic term and I doubt that anyone would use it in normal discourse or in the "technical literature" today. I also doubt that it says anything about Anglo-Saxon attitudes to the bird. Personally, I rather like the crow and am quite fond of the noise they make when gathering to roost as the sun goes down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted May 31, 2012 Share #138 Posted May 31, 2012 Thanks, plasticman. And I think we can agree that those of us who complain do so because we care passionately about Leica in particular and photography in general. Right on Al. I have had a rethink on my previous statement, No I will not sell my Leica M as I enjoy using my film Leicas, so if the demise of film should occure I will consider other options. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyedward Posted May 31, 2012 Share #139 Posted May 31, 2012 Kaufmann relies on leicas historic ties to photographers such as HCB to market the companies products, yet is dismissive of the medium they used to capture images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted May 31, 2012 Share #140 Posted May 31, 2012 Leica will continue to make film cameras that will be of very high quality and much sought after. Whether people use it for taking photographs is another matter altogether. Also, Dr Kaufmann wore black because he was launching the M-Monochrom. He will most certainly wear Hawaiian when launching the M-Color which I believe will be the next iteration of the M (they will drop the numbers like Apple for the iPad). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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