dkCambridgeshire Posted May 30, 2012 Share #21 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) If Leica cannot produce enough of their existing products then production of any new models will probably be delayed until their new manufacturing facility in Vila nova de Famalicão, Portugal is operational. New models my well be ready for production now - but if they have no means of setting up a production line we will have to wait. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Hi dkCambridgeshire, Take a look here Is the Leica CSC dead?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #22 Posted May 30, 2012 For irrespective of what they choose to call it, it will be a developed-on M9, just as the M4, M6 etc. were developed-on M2s. New and more capable electronics, possibly an Active Pixel Sensor ("CMOS"), possibly a revised rear interface à la S2. Even live view. But nothing radical. Live-view alone would require radical changes. Not necessarily on the outside, but the changes on the electronics side (including the sensor) would amount to a complete re-design. The M9 is more or less an M8 with a full-frame sensor and the bare minimum of changes necessary to support it. We are still dealing with the technology of 2006 and it’s high time it makes way for something more state-of-the-art. I think the next model will be a bigger departure from the M9 than the M9 was from the M8, its FF sensor notwithstanding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Esslinger Posted May 30, 2012 Share #23 Posted May 30, 2012 The M9 is more or less an M8 with a full-frame sensor and the bare minimum of changes necessary to support it. We are still dealing with the technology of 2006 and it’s high time it makes way for something more state-of-the-art. I think the next model will be a bigger departure from the M9 than the M9 was from the M8, its FF sensor notwithstanding. I fully agree but I wonder about the price tag - 10.000 € + ? I mean, if it is current state of the art AND can do colour... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 30, 2012 Share #24 Posted May 30, 2012 I fully agree but I wonder about the price tag - 10.000 € + ? I mean, if it is current state of the art AND can do colour... A state-of-the-art CPU isn’t more costly than an outdated one. Neither is a colour sensor more expensive than a monochrome one (everything else being equal the price would mostly depend on the number of units you order, which is why the sensor of the M Monochrom is more expensive than the M9 sensor). Development costs would be a factor, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Esslinger Posted May 30, 2012 Share #25 Posted May 30, 2012 A state-of-the-art CPU isn’t more costly than an outdated one. Neither is a colour sensor more expensive than a monochrome one (everything else being equal the price would mostly depend on the number of units you order, which is why the sensor of the M Monochrom is more expensive than the M9 sensor). Development costs would be a factor, though. Ok, I assumed that state of the art electronics AND sensor would be more expensive than predecessors. Development costs could be high, depending on the number of changes (viewfinder, cmos, etc) vs. M9. But look at the recent price changes from M9 to M9 P to MM. Are these really cost induced or more some sort of strategic pricing, eg. to take M-series up, making room for something below that (CSC?)? It is all guessing of course but when you look at brands occasionally named in this forum: - IWC: wanted to become more of a luxury brand and kept raising price levels year on year without adequate product improvement (politely formulated, in my personal experience) - Apple: want to grow share and keeps price level despite improved product features To me it seems clear which way Leica is heading: not premium but purely luxurious. It might be the right strategy for them but it is a different client base. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted May 30, 2012 Share #26 Posted May 30, 2012 I think Leica will re-brand another Panasonic this year. As far as what they do on their own, they will make sure it is great, and unfortunately expensive but this is beside the point. When Leica came out with the S2 it was not obsolete, but in some ways better than anything else that had been out there. Same with the M8, M9, and X1. All these cameras were in one way or the other ahead of the competition. It took, what 2 years, before Fuji came out with the X100, arguably the only compact that can compete with the image quality of the X1, and there is still no full-frame camera that delivers the quality of the M9 at equal size or dimensions. I am perfectly happy with my M9, and as far as I am concerned Leica can wait with the announcement and release of any new cameras. It takes a couple of years to save up for a new Leica anyways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo.Battista Posted May 30, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 30, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would not focus all of my attention to the fact that an (eventually) mirrorless new camera has to be produced at Solms. Please note that manufactoring the actual rangefinder cameras and lenses could be quite a different job than manufacturing an EVIL system with AF lenses. So, like many other top brands (I think about B&W in the audio market) it is not a problem to manifacture some parts less related to mechanical tolerances in other places. X1 and X2 are an example, aren't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted June 6, 2012 Share #28 Posted June 6, 2012 My expectation was a for a CSC which in some ways would be similar to the Contax G series in that the G Series had a small range of lenses (16,21,28,35,45,90,35-70), but the Leica range would not be autofocus, but small and neat, and strictly limited to the above. It would not impinge on M sales but would probably out-sell it many times owing to affordability. My expectation was for the camera to be similar in size to the X10, so quite CL like but with a small dedicated range of lenses. I would certainly love a camera like that. The Fuji X-Pro 1, although much lighter than the M9 and sporting many of the features you stated above, is still the same size as said M9. I was all set to buy an X-Pro 1 set once finances allowed, but then I handled the Olympus OM-D and was blown away by its operational speed and accuracy. It made the X-Pro 1 I was testing earlier feel positively antiquated, and the lenses are very small and increasingly well-made. But the image quality of the OM-D is not at the same level as the X-Pro 1. So we're back in the same position of tradeoffs in size, operational speed or image quality. My choice for a CL-substitute is currently the Ricoh GXR. It uses M-mount lenses natively and provides super image quality, easily equal to aps-c DSLR's. At the moment I'm willing to wait to see what Leica will create in this area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB007 Posted June 6, 2012 Share #29 Posted June 6, 2012 I may not be wrong to state that a lot of R users out there wants Leica to give the R users a device to use the great line of R lenses. Personally, I do not care for another compact system. If I want a compact system, my first choice is the M. Some people love the X1 but I have never used one. I have a GF1 but I use it rarely...I use my Ms most of the time and IIIf when I am in the mood for it A full frame would be an ideal solution to take advantage of my R lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfung Posted June 6, 2012 Share #30 Posted June 6, 2012 Hi, my first post... But I think that Leica has only ever really had two or three lines of 'systems' at any one time. The M, the R or S, and a compact line (think CM and the X). Having used in the past both the M and R systems, my feeling is that moving forward, that the It'd be the M system who gets a fundamental update; to include auto aperture. This will allow it's use with EVIL, and more complex exposure systems. Perhaps the new M will introduce a new line of lenses with such an addition, and maybe CPU contacts. Will keep the now M line working and also bring new capabilities to an extensive system. My 2 cents... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 6, 2012 Share #31 Posted June 6, 2012 I was all set to buy an X-Pro 1 set once finances allowed, but then I handled the Olympus OM-D and was blown away by its operational speed and accuracy. It made the X-Pro 1 I was testing earlier feel positively antiquated, and the lenses are very small and increasingly well-made. But the image quality of the OM-D is not at the same level as the X-Pro 1. Put a Panasonic 25mm Summilux on the OMD and the image quality is on a par with the X-Pro 1. If Leica are back pedalling on APS-C it is because Olympus and Panasonic have shown there are now vitually no downsides to the m4/3 format. Already a close partnership exists, and the small size of the bodies and the lenses will appeal to Leica. Panasonic are going to be releasing their own weather sealed answer to the OMD soon, and this could be the jumping off point for the future Leica CSC. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 6, 2012 Share #32 Posted June 6, 2012 You don't need auto aperture to use M lenses with EVIL cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfung Posted June 7, 2012 Share #33 Posted June 7, 2012 I know you don't need auto aperture in EVIL cameras. But my point I that an auto aperture M lens may have great future potential to keep the M mount digitally up to date. In that, with an auto aperture, Leica can make a X Pro 1 type viewfinder and still have range finding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 7, 2012 Share #34 Posted June 7, 2012 I know you don't need auto aperture in EVIL cameras. But my point I that an auto aperture M lens may have great future potential to keep the M mount digitally up to date. In that, with an auto aperture, Leica can make a X Pro 1 type viewfinder and still have range finding. I can't imagine why they would do that. Isn't the issue that there is a huge number of legacy M and R lenses, including many with focus shift, that will work perfectly on an EVIL camera. It is such a simple solution, as all you're doing is slapping a sensor with live view on the back of a lens. I have no difficulty with setting aperture and manual focusing (these are the tricky bits that catch out the majority of people who have no manual camera background). Actually, I like this arrangement very much. The problem with your proposal is keeping the rangefinder - an expensive and difficult exercise to get right in mass-production - and introducing new electronics into a manual lens. The M lenses are very compact, and making them auto anything is problematic. However, if Leica made an AF lens with an M mount, you might be right that including auto-aperture is not such a big additional step, and would allow for a fully automatic EVIL camera with greater mass-market appeal. Incorporating an optical rangefinder might be going too far, and it might encroach onto M territory too much, especially if it had a full-sized sensor. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted June 7, 2012 Share #35 Posted June 7, 2012 But doesn't the same logic apply that killed the R series? The Asian producers can move quickly; whatever Leica's CSC wants to be, others will likely already have done (at lower quality and lower price) than Leica's design. That makes it an also-ran before it's even on the market. Or where am I wrong? You are right. Leica should differentiate their products, and generate synergies among them. I would bet for a 24x36 format based camera, with M mount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 7, 2012 Share #36 Posted June 7, 2012 Again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 7, 2012 Share #37 Posted June 7, 2012 I would bet for a 24x36 format based camera, with M mount. The M10, in other words. I doubt there will be another new model fitting that description. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted June 8, 2012 Share #38 Posted June 8, 2012 I have in fact been discussing that question at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/240828-sizing-up-future-15.html The answer to much of the recent speculation here is – the new M. Which will also. I think, incidentally answer the call for a 'R solution'. But that will not be the rationale behind it. Tha answer to the rest will be Leica's 'breakout camera', but this one is still a couple of years away. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted June 9, 2012 Share #39 Posted June 9, 2012 The Panasonic GX-1 is only one example of a very handy CSC or EVIL camera. It even uses Leica-branded lenses or M lenses with an adaptor. A Leica version with red dot and X1-2-style interface would probably win a few fans. I wouldn't mind an even more compact D-Lux 5 with X-style controls -- or an X something with a built-in 24-90 zoom. Such a camera would not be an M replacement but longterm I wonder whether the X and M cameras will merge. An XM? But it will be interesting to see if there is anything new in Leica's bag for Photokina. It's only a few months away now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted June 9, 2012 Share #40 Posted June 9, 2012 But it will be interesting to see if there is anything new in Leica's bag for Photokina. It's only a few months away now. They have booked an entire hall at the Photokina. They intend to make a splash. Not even a new M would be enough splash. We'll see. I have my own private prognosis, but I don't think I will post it until September 16. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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