Is Leica prices rising too fast?

[rramesh]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think not!

 

The Leica is today the best, the most appreciated and the most collectible camera. Yes, in some respects, there are other cameras which may be better, but Leica has gotten the aura of a collectors camera.

 

As a comparison look at Patek Philippe. In every watch auction, consistently, PP has led the top bids. Is the PP the best made watch? I can bet you Lange & Sohne, Audemars Piguet and others will have better. But it's the PP that is the best collector's watch and attracts the most attention. Today PP has breached 5M USD in auctions.

 

Leica has certainly achieved a similar high with the most recent sale of the Leica O for close to 3M USD.

 

Future Leicas will certainly move up in price by 10-12% YoY.

[SJP]

I can see the value for a collector, but the vast majority of Leica camera's are not collectible to any major extent. Maybe if you wait for 200 years to cash in the situation will be different. Time to visit your GP for a life extension programme.

 

Anyway, despite this Leica stuff costs a considerable amount of money, there are multiple reasons for that:

- the volume is small, artisan, which is good as it adds to the appreciation of the product being made by real people that actually care about what they do

- in conjunction, Leica does not really care all that much about what is sensible, they seem to want to do what is possible. That is a totally different parameter than the norm in manufacturing. I really like the concept of a 1000 FTE company putting stuff on the market that is totally outside the scope of the mainstream camera business.

- Leica is (notoriously) good a failing to achieve their ambitions, this causes irritation but in view of the above many customers are happy enough to let them off the hook. The M8 was not perfect but it was (still is in my case) a phenomenally good camera.

 

So what you get is pretty much state of the art, small series, products. It is obvious that there is a price tag for that.

 

In comparison - a hand built car costs ca. 300,000 - 1,000,000 euro - an off the shelf car with probably better reliability and driving characteristics (less exiting) costs 5,000 - 100,000 euro typically. C'est la difference.

[almoore]

Leica has gotten the aura of a collectors camera.

 

And how sad that fact is to anybody who cares more about images than bling.

[rramesh]

Unfortunately for photographers on a budget, it is just becoming unaffordable, if not already so.

 

Brings to mind the Patek slogan. " You never really own a Patek. You merely look after it for the next generation". This is provided you have one to start with.

[philipus]

Sorry Ramchand, I may have misunderstood your initial post but are you being sarcastic or do you believe that Leica is actually raising prices at an appropriate speed?

 

Personally I find watch comparisons, or car dittos, to be of little relevance. Also, "Leica" is more than just one particular camera. I've seen few S2 collectors out there and there are not even that many R collectors. The brand as a whole may have an "aura" but it is not, as a whole, as a collector's camera.

[stunsworth]

...but Leica has gotten the aura of a collectors camera

 

That's the problem, not a reason to celebrate.

[SteveYork]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Digital cameras will not be collectible. High depreciation is inherent in the equipment.

[rramesh]

Sorry Ramchand, I may have misunderstood your initial post but are you being sarcastic or do you believe that Leica is actually raising prices at an appropriate speed?

I was not being sarcastic. There are many professional photographers and serious amateurs who buy Leica because of their technology innovation, high quality and reliable products. Unfortunately with this 'aura of a collectors camera' we now have others (collectors, wealthy individuals and speculators) who also vie for a limited production brand. I say limited as Leica manufacture process takes time bringing to market products.

 

In this regard its no different from a collectors watch like Patek Philippe. Prices of new Pateks have consistently moved up YoY. Those in the resale market have held up prices reasonably well (Yes there is an initial price drop, but not as much as other brands). Over a period of 20-40 years they appreciate. Not across the board, but appreciation is higher for limited editions, complications and rare models.

 

Leica is now doing the same. They are pandering to the collectors with their limited editions (M7 China Revolution edition, Hermes edition etc.) and also with technical complications (Noctilux 0.95, APO Summicron 50 ASPH etc.). While these lenses do take great pictures, they are not introduced for the photographers on a budget or who are running a professional career. In the current buyer market, a 10% YoY price increase may even be justified.

 

The opening of stores go a long way to support this corporate strategy.

[bocaburger]

1. There are far fewer camera collectors than watch collectors.

 

2. There are standards for accuracy in both mechanical and quartz timepieces, and if a watch meets those standards it is considered up to snuff. With a digital camera, the majority's perception is that it becomes obsolete with the advent of the next generation.

 

3. Watch prices have risen in the past few years, but not anywhere close to the percentage Leica has inflated theirs.

[Paul J]

Digital won't be collectable, not as much door stops will be. Batteries die, SD Cards I'm sure will go the way of the ghost one day. Sensors are cracking even now. There's a very good chance that in 50, let a lone 20 years, the camera won't even work.

 

Hermes doorstop. Wow.

[rramesh]

Digital cameras will not be collectible. High depreciation is inherent in the equipment.

 

That's what I thought initially. But I looked at Patek Philippe. Many of the models in the ladies range are quartz watches (i.e. electronic) but even there prices have held up reasonable well over time. They are even sold in auctions.

 

Of course a rare and pure mechanical complication would appreciate most.

[SJP]

There is no obvious reason why electronics is not (should not be) collectible. I think we all still have electronic stuff that is 40 years old and still running. Radios, clocks, amplifiers, watches, cameras - the list is endless. Valve/tube radios from 1930's still work - albeit that they may catch fire:D

 

Why would a M8 suddenly die on you, only because it is 50 years old? The primary/only concern would be the battery. SD cards will still be around I expect.

 

The only thing I can think of in terms of technical stuff is that the mechanical M's are so primitive that it is 100% guaranteed that someone if paid enough would be able to reconstruct one. In the case of the digital versions this is less obvious, although times may change. Re-baking an obsolete IC is not very expensive nowadays, so in principle it is all up for grabs.

[stunsworth]

Digital cameras will not be collectible. High depreciation is inherent in the equipment.

 

At this point in time that is correct, but who knows what the future will bring.

[bpalme]

Yes it is going up too fast. For lenses anyway production has been limited. I predict a level off as production is suppose to quadruple. These kind of percent increases are not sustainable. There has been an initial wave of new Leica people since the intro of the digital M. So I can already tell on the used market prices are falling for the 0.95, 35 FLE,and new 50 1.4. For the Titanium ,Hermes type cameras I can see prices go up for stuff like that.

BTW I don't like the watch comparison. It's just too disimilar of a product.

[bocaburger]

That's what I thought initially. But I looked at Patek Philippe. Many of the models in the ladies range are quartz watches (i.e. electronic) but even there prices have held up reasonable well over time. They are even sold in auctions.

 

Patek and other high-end brands use quartz analog movements that are made in Switzerland by ETA (until recently when they began limiting those to Swatch-owned manufactures) and Ronda; jeweled and modular, they are to a large extent repairable. They are not the throw-away movements in cheap quartz watches. Although if a new movement is readily available, they exchange it in the interest of economical and rapid service to the customer, and because not all watchmakers are trained to delve into electronics. But these so-called "high-end quartz" movements are then sent back to the factory for credit, where they are rebuilt on an efficient assembly-line. This is similar to the business model used frequently in automobile repair.

[bocaburger]

That's what I thought initially. But I looked at Patek Philippe. Many of the models in the ladies range are quartz watches (i.e. electronic) but even there prices have held up reasonable well over time. They are even sold in auctions.

 

Patek and other high-end brands use quartz analog movements that are made in Switzerland, jeweled, and to a large extent repairable. They are not the throw-away movements in cheap quartz watches. Although if a new movement is readily available, they exchange it in the interest of economical and rapid service to the customer, and because not all watchmakers are trained to delve into electronics. But these so-called "high-end quartz" movements are then sent back to the factory for credit, where they are rebuilt on an efficient assembly-line. This is similar to the business model used frequently in automobile repair.

[SteveYork]

1. Leica's digital camera bodies appear no more reliable then other manufacturers.

 

2. In terms of optical excellence, the difference between Leica versus Nikon/Canon or new Leica versus old Leica is much smaller to the naked eye then these forums suggest.

 

3. The M9 filled a real niche -- full frame in a small body. Other companies are or will starting to produce some competition (see e.g., Fuji (albeit not full frame (yet)).

 

4. History has shown that the 'electronic' cameras have depreciated more then purely mechanical cameras. I think this is because the mechanical camera can't be improved, where the electronic cameras are always in a state of being improved. Just compare the used prices on old Nikon Fs and F2s versus F3s. The same is true with rangefinders.

 

5. Leica has always catered to the collector, at least from the mid-1970's onward. There are too many to name.

[jdlaing]

At this point in time that is correct, but who knows what the future will bring.

 

Sotheby's

[earleygallery]

My thinking is that Leicas are collectable (the older models/lenses) because they are historically important, hand made precision instruments, which have been used by some of the mosts famous photographers to create some of the most iconic images in history. The quality of the items is such that they are as good today as when they were new.

 

I doubt the first Leica cameras were made with the idea that they would one day become sought after collectors items, but collectors like them for the some of the above reasons.

 

If Leicas were rubbish cameras they wouldn't attract the same kind of interest or desire.

 

The problem with the new 'collectors' cameras being churned out by Leica and Hermes is that they are made with the intention of being collectors items, quite a different scenario. I doubt they will have the same appeal as that 0 series camera to future collectors, and whilst they may provide short term gains to Leicas balance sheet I'm not sure they are improving the brand longer term.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[luigi bertolotti]

When speaking about Leica as a collectible, this discussion could stay better in the proper section of the forum...

 

Anyway : apart the recent striking record at auctions, the main factor to consider is that Leica has ALWAYS been (to say... in the last 50 years... or even more) the most collectible brand within cameras, and that is a fact : as a personal experience, I bought my first LTM Leica 30 years ago about, and at those times in Milano there were three shops specialized in camera collecting : for all of them, I'd say that around 70% of the items for sale had the Leitz logo... not so different in Rome (Luigi Crescenzi was already active at those times... with a delicious shop almost wholly dedicated to Leica collecting); it wasn't yet the Net Era... but I saw with my eyes synthetic typewritten bulletins that italian dealers exchanged with foreign collegues with details on items availability, mean prices etc.. 75-80% of the pages were devoted to Leitz items.

The reason of this is simple and has NOTHING to do with the current aura of "luxury brand" that involves Leica co. : Leitz made , around a SINGLE concept / product, a very complex, complete, self-consistent system, composed of thousands of items of excellent quality and fascinating constructive details, and all of this with GREAT commercial success, to say with thousands and thousands of products sold around the world, products that not a person with a minimum level of taste can think of "let's throw away... is old..." ; all of this is the perfect condition to create a significant collectors' market : a famous brand, not dispersed in dozens of product lines (as is, just to say, for Zeiss) , with many many items available worldwide (as is NOT, just to say, for Alpa cameras... fine collectibles but few items made).and lot of items that, even if "simple" do inspire a specific interest within passionates (think for instance to finders, to filters, to micrography accessories...)

 

Most of Leica collectors do follow auctions, dealers etc... but their interest is not concentrated on the striking super rare items... I put ensemble, in around 30 years, no fewer than 55 lenses... most of them "trivial"... in a house 500 meters far from mine there is a man who has 70 or so Leica bodies... most of them "trivial"... the prices of those items do follow certain fluctuations, only partially influenced by the impressive ultrarare record-breaking items. Personally (and of course being personally involved... ), I think this will remain a quiet and solid collectors' market, with people that like to speak of the details of a IIc converted to IIIf... or of the engraving onto a VIOOH... , that KNOW what is the story behind the items they have, and stay far from the frenziness that, in certain moments, can fly around Leica (and of which Leica, as a profit oriented company, does well in capitalizing onto)