Yawn to new announcements

[lct]

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No M9 any more. This old cam would survive under the Monochrom name though. The new M would be the M10. Another pure rangefinder with CMOS, live view and accessory EVF... in my crystal ball.

[Rick]

No M9 any more. This old cam would survive under the Monochrom name though. The new M would be the M10. Another pure rangefinder with CMOS, live view and accessory EVF... in my crystal ball.

 

Ok. No M9. I got to go to bed, big day coming in the market this week me thinks and I want to be up early.

[luigi bertolotti]

1) Leica doesn't have top notch lenses for a new evil either. If, they made new AF lenses for a new system that were top notch they would be expensive.

 

2) More than APS-C? That is FF.

 

You have now just designed the new Leica FF EVIL with top notch lenses. $$$$ or €€€€!

 

1) Yes but if they make a new system with new line of lenses, one can hope they will be up to Leica tradition...

2) There is the APS-H or "M8" format... a little differentiator that could give a marginal added value...

[phancj]

I still feel the announcements made has been underwhelming, and hope Leica has something up its sleeves for photokina.

 

Not counting on it though...

 

I am comparing this with the last major launch of the S, X and of course the M9. Plus what the other manufacturers have been trying to do...Nikon D800, FUji Xpro,etc...

 

CJ

[Jamie Roberts]

It wouldn't canibalize the the M sales. Customers that want the rangefinder experience will still choose the M9. Customers that want an EVIL with AF and video and CMOS and in a camera that will mount M and R lenses (with a different manual focusing experience) will choose the new camera. Customers that want the MM will choose it.

 

Do you think the MM will canibalize M9 sales?

 

What about customers like me who will not buy the EVIL camera but want more than the M9 gives me?

 

What about extending the Summarit lineage? I had someone mention to me today that Leica could make a fortune just re-working their Mandler-based "pre-ASPH" designs. Start making them in Canada again, even

 

What about getting stuff into the hands of photographers and not collectors?

 

I know the new Summicron is stunningly good for an f2 lens. That tweaks me not very much, because it's not going to make that much more interesting prints than my Summarit, to tell the truth. It's just an f2 lens.

 

So I really hope your crystal ball is wrong on this Rick. I think an overpriced, AF, EVIL kind of M-compatible thing will really sink Leica.

 

They need an M10 with evolutionary benefits: faster and bigger buffer, 2 stops better ISO and DR, updated RF optics, better LCD, better colour, better viewfinder electronics, no card-writing problems, reliable as a tank.

 

Then they'd have something new to sell all their lenses with (but I still wouldn't buy the new Summicron APO. The new Nocti? Yes; the Summicron? No).

[k-hawinkler]

Jamie,

 

A thoughtful list of improvements.

I only would want to add LiveView.

 

Why?

 

• Easy checking if my rangefinder adjustment is off.

• Can focus R-lenses, at least on a tripod.

[phancj]

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High iso? At least up to specs with current dslrs.

 

CJ

[ramosa]

 

They need an M10 with evolutionary benefits: faster and bigger buffer, 2 stops better ISO and DR, updated RF optics, better LCD, better colour, better viewfinder electronics, no card-writing problems, reliable as a tank.

 

That sums it up well for me, too. And I'd buy it. But I don't need video, which others have mentioned. That's just not what an M is in me eyes.

[Rick]

What about customers like me who will not buy the EVIL camera but want more than the M9 gives me?

 

So I really hope your crystal ball is wrong on this Rick. I think an overpriced, AF, EVIL kind of M-compatible thing will really sink Leica.

 

They need an M10 with evolutionary benefits: faster and bigger buffer, 2 stops better ISO and DR, updated RF optics, better LCD, better colour, better viewfinder electronics, no card-writing problems, reliable as a tank.

 

Jammie, just to say, we agree that the M9 would benefit from all of those things you named. And, that camera will remain the M. It won't be the new EVF wiz-bang R solution camera.

 

But, Leica may come up with something different that is mirrorless that mounts R and M lenses and isn't a rangefinder M. But, Kaufmann's latest screed hints that it won't be at Photokina. For me, I hope that is true. More and more I just want to be left alone with my handful of really good Leica M optics and my M9. It would be nice to see those improvements you mentioned for the M9 and maybe (probably ) I'd be interested.

 

And, like you, I am not interested in a Leica AF camera that takes M and R lenses. First off, I don't have enough R lenses (I have one). Secondly, the RF is THE best way to focus M lenses. No focus-peeking, EVF-squinting, non split-image screen will ever come close to focusing a M or R lens when they are stopped down. It is just too impossible to manually determine the plane of focus (stopped down) without a RF... or a micro-mirror or split focus optical screen on a camera that can focus wide open and then stopdown to shoot. But, then you get into the stop down metering problem with manual f-stop lenses.

 

Jammie, somewhat related... your question to me a couple weeks ago about, what did I think about focusing the 50 R Lux on the D800, didn't go past me. That one question shaped my whole decision about the D800 and R glass. And, it changed my mind about ever wanting a EVF on my M9.

 

To answer your question: It was close to impossible on the ground glass screen, even wide open. the D800 is not my idea of the "R solution." It also made me realize that using M glass on any other camera than the M9, like the NEX, is a huge compromise from using M-glass on the M.

 

Sean Reid may be able to shoot coins and green peppers and come up with some empirical data but, in real life a manual M lens on a non-RF camera is a compromise. I can't imagine twisting a 50 lux on a NEX for anything other than just playing around. To Leica: Just make my M9 better, not more, not different. Then, leave me alone with my M and my few nice lenses. Just MHO.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

To answer your question: It was close to impossible on the ground glass screen, even wide open. the D800 is not my idea of the "R solution." It also made me realize that using M glass on any other camera than the M9, like the NEX, is a huge compromise from using M-glass on the M. {snipped}

 

Interesting, Rick! Was the D800 vf just not bright enough? Or was there some issue with the adapter?

 

I'm curious because there are still a few kinks with using a Canon 5d3 with R glass, but on the whole, it's quite a nice experience; the VF is 100% and because Canon has gone to a new prism and projection system inside the VF it's quite a lot brighter than previous models.

 

I've never understood putting M glass on a system where half of the lens image circle is cropped away

[k-hawinkler]

Maybe one should consider a mirror less not FF LiveView camera a temporary fix until a FF is available?

[lct]

...there are still a few kinks with using a Canon 5d3 with R glass, but on the whole, it's quite a nice experience; the VF is 100% and because Canon has gone to a new prism and projection system inside the VF it's quite a lot brighter than previous models...

The 5D3 cannot fit accessory focusing screens though IINW. How do you manage to focus R lenses at real aperture with the built-in focusing screen if i may ask?

[Jamie Roberts]

The 5D3 cannot fit accessory focusing screen though IINW. How do you manage to focus R lenses at real aperture with the built-in focusing screen if i may ask?

 

Well, I'm not sure what you're asking. The VF is bright enough that I can focus pretty well with 1.4 to f2.8 lenses and the groundglass; I don't have any R lenses slower than that.

 

In truth, in good light, it's easy down to f4. Getting dark by 5.6; so it's a matter of opening up, focusing, stopping down, then shooting.

 

There are also focus-confirming adapters for the 5d3, and they're pretty advanced, though I haven't found one with a Novoflex-like build and a confirm chip. I like it for 85mm and longer; under 85 it's not necessary for me.

 

The adapter search continues

[lct]

Because you focus at full aperture as the good photographer you are. I'm used to focus at real aperture down to f/4-5.6 with my 5D1 thanks to a split image focusing screen that i find much more accurate than the AF confirm feature of the body. Perhaps the 5D3 is better there. Ever tried a chipped Fotodiox adapter with the latter?

[Rick]

Jammie, I just had a heck of a time trying to focus the lens. I racked back and forth but, could not find where the lens was focused. There really is no confirmation like you might have with micro prisms or a spit screen. I was just on my own to try and make the subject as clear as I could on the ground glass screen. Not like having a RF patch and picking which eye you want. How well does the your focus confirmation spot work on your 5DIII?

[Jeff S]

FWIW I tried a friend's 5DII that he had fitted with a special screen to use with his Zeiss lenses. I had a bit of trouble getting good focus with several lenses. He now has the 5DIII and I was able to focus better with that screen than with his 5DII 'special' screen. I suspect the same would have been true with R lenses.

 

Additionally, while his 5DIII focus confirmation works pretty well, even with the adapted Zeiss, the light tends to stay on even when then there is a slight additional amount of fine tuning of the focus knob. He said that this was improved, however, after he took time to micro adjust his lenses to the camera (using LensAlign).

 

He sometimes uses AF mode, of course with Canon glass, and this is dramatically improved from his 5DII. And he uses live view for landscapes...and the focus is naturally perfect...but that's another matter. That 5DIII is a nice camera, even though the D800 is getting all the attention (and the latter has problems with live view magnification according to many reports).

 

Jeff

[phancj]

Jeff,

 

Can I ask what live view magnification problems?

 

When I first got the D800 I read all the online problems I could find e.g extreme left focus point problems, LCD green cast, lockup requiring removal of battery, etc,etc and was unable to duplicate the problems. Not that I would use the camera in the manner that some said triggered the problems. Some bloggers like ming thein have suggested focusing problems with the 35 and 85 1.4g but I found the opposite to be true, the AF is super on those lenses and required zero AF finetuning as compared to previous cams I used. The 35 1.4G used to have extreme front focus but on this cam it is spot on. Maybe in a mad rush to produce the cams to meet demand nikon has slackened its QC?

 

The cam did have a strange quirk though that is after hundreds of photos, the camera would suddenly take over and sort of not freeze but it looks like it is trying to load/save something. It takes 10 sec or so for it to be normal after that. I do not have to do anything, it just kinda need to do something be it clearing buffer or whatever, but I may not even be shooting it just happens by itself hahah.....This is so far the ONLY problem I detected, keeping fingers crossed....

 

I have installed the firmware update and havent got time to toy with the cam since yet.

 

My suggestion to anyone considering the D800 is simply to try it out (though still not easy if not near impossible to get one) and most will then understand why it is so sought after , the high MP is just ONE of the things I like about the camera. Its AF, operation, controls, durability, high iso (yes, even high iso) is just remarkable. And the latitude of pliability in its raw file is just amazing. With the right lenses the cam delivers details that beg to be magnified and enjoyed.

 

My initial idea was to sell the D800 once the D800E becomes available but having used the D800 since launch all I can say is it is already a much better camera than I am a photographer I am pretty certain the D800E will add nothing for me. I got a call from my regular dealer asking if I wanted the D800E and I have turned it down.

 

Quite certain I will be shooting with it for a long while, estimated min 3 years.

 

Keeping to this thread, I just hope leica delivers some groundbreaking products like nikon did with the D800.

 

CJ

[Jeff S]

Jeff,

Can I ask what live view magnification problems?

 

Various discussions like this one.

 

Fred Miranda also compared the D800 and the 5DIII in this review and basically found the D800 live view magnification unusable for his needs. Here is another reviewer who experienced similar problems in low light.

 

There are also some videos...

and

.

 

If you Google, you'll find more, in addition to other issues like green cast.

 

Jeff

[phancj]

Jeff,

 

Thanks.

 

The LCD on my D800 does not have a green cast.

 

I will try the live view at night when I have the opportunity.

 

CJ

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[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Additionally, while his 5DIII focus confirmation works pretty well, even with the adapted Zeiss, the light tends to stay on even when then there is a slight additional amount of fine tuning of the focus knob. He said that this was improved, however, after he took time to micro adjust his lenses to the camera (using LensAlign).

 

He sometimes uses AF mode, of course with Canon glass, and this is dramatically improved from his 5DII. And he uses live view for landscapes...and the focus is naturally perfect...but that's another matter. That 5DIII is a nice camera, even though the D800 is getting all the attention (and the latter has problems with live view magnification according to many reports).

 

Jeff

 

I couldn't agree more, actually Jeff. I'm loving mine with R glass.

 

BTW--tell your friend that if he wants the most critical focus confirmation with manual glass, (like shooting at f1.4 close up) he needs to use "AF SPOT" which narrows the AF sensor considerably... this is a new focusing mode for Canon and it's really great... I use it with the 80 R Lux and with Canon's 85 1.2L and it rocks.