lct Posted May 15, 2012 Share #21 Posted May 15, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...The M10 is the mirror-less camera, Leica style. No RF or OVF. It will have video. R and M mount. The M9 will live on as their RF OVF camera line... I would rather see the M10 as a true RF with optional EVF, no M9 any more and the MM as B&W camera possibly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 Hi lct, Take a look here Yawn to new announcements. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted May 15, 2012 Share #22 Posted May 15, 2012 The M9 will stay the pure RF with OVF. The M10 will not be a rangefinder. It will be able to mount M lenses but it will not have a focus roller to couple to the M lens cams because, there will no be RF in the M10 to couple to. But, there will be a nice expensive line of APO Summicron AF lenses to buy for the New M10. And, your Telyt R280 2.8 and long lenses will work on this new M10. And, you will have LV and video and... High megapixel CMOS and new APO Summicron line is going to be best in class image. That is what Leica is about and it isn't going to show up on a mirror-less camera to compete with the NEX7 at a price between the X2 and the M9. Leica has already started to show the way of the pricing with the APO 50 Summicron. Also, the M10 will probably not have an M designation. Or it will be ML (mirror less) or more likely some German language name like the M9 and the MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 15, 2012 Share #23 Posted May 15, 2012 We have not the same crystal ball seemingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 15, 2012 Share #24 Posted May 15, 2012 That is because you state what you would like to see and I think that is going to disappoint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cederic Posted May 15, 2012 Share #25 Posted May 15, 2012 Actually, Leica lens quality with a full frame sensor and AF on a body small enough to fit into a coat pocket _is_ what I want to see. Whether I can afford it is entirely different.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 15, 2012 Share #26 Posted May 15, 2012 That is because you state what you would like to see and I think that is going to disappoint. Rick, your speculations about the "M10" (let's call it this way) can be right... but I continue to think that the new owners DO want to increase market share... and imho there is one way to do this : fill the price gap between M9/10/MM and X2 with something... rather smartly engineered to make desirable to a certain share of users a 5-6 K$ camera, keeping in account the brand value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted May 15, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 15, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think what Rick is suggesting makes sense from a business perspective. Blackstone cares mostly about ROI... and market share for Leica probably won't lead to maximizing ROI. They would have to compete with Fuji, Sony, Ricoh, ... And that is going to take ongoing intensive product development as margins will be compressed by competition. I don't think Leica can go there. But, to have the only (at least the first) mirror-less full frame camera that will mount M lenses and a new line of super lenses... will allow Leica to price it ... Well, let's say it will be a premium price! They won't need market share to deliver the margins. If they deliver an APS-C EVF camera, they compete head on with he big boys and I don't think they want that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 15, 2012 Share #28 Posted May 15, 2012 Rick, your speculations about the "M10" (let's call it this way) can be right... but I continue to think that the new owners DO want to increase market share... and imho there is one way to do this : fill the price gap between M9/10/MM and X2 with something... rather smartly engineered to make desirable to a certain share of users a 5-6 K$ camera, keeping in account the brand value. Maybe, but how would a mid-level conservatively spec'ed 5-6K$ camera compete? No. Leica's new CMOS mirror-less camera system is going to have the best optics. That is who they are. They have been be upping their lens catalog with new 35FLE lux, new 50 Noctilux, new APO Asph 50 Summicron! and the others? Leica is surely going for the best CMOS sensor to match those optics. And, I really think the new Summicron APO is going to gain trickle down technology from the S2 and will be autofocus for the new CMOS based camera. That lens on a small bodied high MP CMOS sensor, maybe say, weather sealed, would be very attractive to certain professional photographers and would lead Leica to a place where they would indirectly compete with DSLRs. But, of course, Leica products are unique and don't really directly compete with anything specific, other than the whole general camera market The race to higher MP CMOS sensors plays well into Leica's hand. I believe it is going to be a little tough for Nikon because, Leica can fairly easily get a sensor off the shelf to compete. Nikon on the other hand, is weak on lens image quality and is going to have a long difficult period to play catch-up with their line of lenses if, they want to stay in the MP race with Leica lens image quality. I don't see Leica entering the CMOS/mirror-less market as a mid-level player. Not with their heritage and catalog of top notch optics and reputation for image quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 15, 2012 Share #29 Posted May 15, 2012 I think what Rick is suggesting makes sense from a business perspective. Blackstone cares mostly about ROI... and market share for Leica probably won't lead to maximizing ROI. They would have to compete with Fuji, Sony, Ricoh, ... And that is going to take ongoing intensive product development as margins will be compressed by competition. I don't think Leica can go there. But, to have the only (at least the first) mirror-less full frame camera that will mount M lenses and a new line of super lenses... will allow Leica to price it ... Well, let's say it will be a premium price! They won't need market share to deliver the margins. If they deliver an APS-C EVF camera, they compete head on with he big boys and I don't think they want that. They could even compete... for a pair of reasons : 1) None of the current EVIL has a top notch lenses' set (maybe Fuji, but see 2nd point) 2) None of the current EVIL has a "fashionable/luxury" feel (Fuji less then others, Olympus maybe, but is a m43... and Leica could go for "some more than APS-C") They could work on this and find their way, imho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 15, 2012 Share #30 Posted May 15, 2012 They could even compete... for a pair of reasons :1) None of the current EVIL has a top notch lenses' set (maybe Fuji, but see 2nd point) 2) None of the current EVIL has a "fashionable/luxury" feel (Fuji less then others, Olympus maybe, but is a m43... and Leica could go for "some more than APS-C") They could work on this and find their way, imho. 1) Leica doesn't have top notch lenses for a new evil either. If, they made new AF lenses for a new system that were top notch they would be expensive. 2) More than APS-C? That is FF. You have now just designed the new Leica FF EVIL with top notch lenses. $$$$ or €€€€! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 15, 2012 Share #31 Posted May 15, 2012 Why would Leica canibalize their M sales with that FF EVIL? You will see one when pigs can fly. Not at next Photokina anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 15, 2012 Share #32 Posted May 15, 2012 Why would Leica canibalize their M sales with that FF EVIL? You will see one when pigs can fly. Not at next Photokina anyway. It wouldn't canibalize the the M sales. Customers that want the rangefinder experience will still choose the M9. Customers that want an EVIL with AF and video and CMOS and in a camera that will mount M and R lenses (with a different manual focusing experience) will choose the new camera. Customers that want the MM will choose it. Do you think the MM will canibalize M9 sales? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iforum Posted May 15, 2012 Share #33 Posted May 15, 2012 Do you think the MM will canibalize M9 sales? Some people with have to make a choice but the M9/10 will not be overtly affected. Other stuff is a different ball game and a cheaper leica evil or whatever will take sales away Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 15, 2012 Share #34 Posted May 15, 2012 The MM is an M and won't cannibalize anything for this simple reason. The EVIL would be less expensive or would not be at all. Reason why it would be an APS-C or APS-H camera, if any. Anyway forget it folks. Leica said that it is too soon to launch it (if any again), and there is simply no room for two FF systems at Leica anyway. I've bet 3 bottles of cider with Rosuna on that. I can add a couple of new ones if you're prepared to bet as well. Pure Malt Whisky for me please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted May 15, 2012 Share #35 Posted May 15, 2012 The MM is an M and won't cannibalize anything for this simple reason. The EVIL would be less expensive or would not be at all. Reason why it would be an APS-C or APS-H camera, if any. Anyway forget it folks. Leica said that it is too soon to launch it (if any again), and there is simply no room for two FF systems at Leica anyway. I've bet 3 bottles of cider with Rosuna on that. I can add a couple of new ones if you're prepared to bet as well. Pure Malt Whisky for me please. Ok LCT. I'm in! If only for a chance at some free single malt whiskey. I think it will be nearly as expensive as the M9 and will simply give Leica users a more advanced camera if they so choose. Half the people on this forum complain that the M9 doesn't have live view, video, EVF, faster processor, better high ISO performance etc. The other half don't see a need to change the M9 at all. I also think Leica would get some new customers with an advanced FF offering. We shall see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 16, 2012 Share #36 Posted May 16, 2012 Where did Leica say anything was going to be cheaper to compete with other company's EVIL cameras? Are we talking about the same Leica? LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iforum Posted May 16, 2012 Share #37 Posted May 16, 2012 Rick you are the one talking about other manufacturers the mention here is in reference to the M9 and another leica product Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share #38 Posted May 16, 2012 The new 50 Summicron that was just introduced is the optics that you will see in a new line of Asph Summicron AF lenses for the M10. If there can be AF in an M leica will sell a whole lot more cameras IMO. Waitlists could go on for years! CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 16, 2012 Share #39 Posted May 16, 2012 ...I also think Leica would get some new customers with an advanced FF offering... They would with another M body (aka M10) having full frame, live view and an accessory EVF. Pure speculation from my part. But no EVIL so far according to Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 16, 2012 Share #40 Posted May 16, 2012 Nope. Leica will not put AF, live view, an external socket for an EVF and a rangefinder in the same camera. First of all where would they have room for the battery to drive all that stuff. The M9 will stay purely a mechanical rangefinder. Now, their new camera, which will also be mirrorless, will have all that stuff and more but, it won't be a RF. It will be purely electronic viewfinder and everything that CMOS infused technology is capable of. And, it won't be cheap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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