Leica Event May 10th – Live Coverage

[zlatkob]

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What about the fallacy of generalizing from a single data point don’t you understand?

 

Thank you for saying that. It is a fallacy to think that if something happened ONCE, it must happen the same way forever after. The hints of an M10 on May 10th came from people outside of Leica. The hint from Leica about May 10th was "Leica celebrates the essentials of photography" ... which does seem to be a hint about black & white photography.

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[jpattison]

Some took the hints and didn't expect an M10, others didn't and did expect it. Oh well, that's life and time to move on.

 

Indicated by the fact that, with probably more members, less were on line than on the 9/9/09....

 

Most users ever online was 1,622, 09/09/09 at 15:03

 

John

[plasticman]

Thank you for saying that. It is a fallacy to think that if something happened ONCE, it must happen the same way forever after. The hints of an M10 on May 10th came from people outside of Leica. The hint from Leica about May 10th was "Leica celebrates the essentials of photography" ... which does seem to be a hint about black & white photography.

 

But marketing isn't about testing your customers to see how stupid you can make some of them feel.

 

The date they chose - with 364 alternatives - led some people to believe that the M10 was being launched. At least one of them on this forum even sold his M9 in anticipation of the announcement (and possibly a few others). Wagging fingers afterwards and tut-tutting is an obtuse thing to do, because these delicate balances of customer loyalty depend on very carefully considered strategies and impact assessments.

[chrism]

While we are in the mood for speculation (and isn't it wonderful that the root of that word is the latin for 'mirror'?), we should no doubt be paying extra attention to the posts of those who had the M-M in advance; they will surely be receiving their M10s for field testing very soon if it is indeed going to be announced in September....

 

Chris

Who only uses plastic, disposable and non-reflective specula at work

[Jamie Roberts]

So not owning an S2, and not overly interested in a $7K 50mm f2 lens (though I'm sure it's a remarkable optical achievement, don't get me wrong), I'm more or less underwhelmed by the announcements. I was also one of those people dumb enough to think that May 10 might just be shorthand for an M10 announcement too--especially given all the hype around Nikon and Canon's new cameras.

 

Anyway, I can live with that disappointment. But I still don't get the M9M allure.

 

Unless, that is, someone can tell me how the M9M stacks up against various BW films in terms of tonality. Did they remove the IR filter at least? Or go back to the M8's IR filter strategy of a very thin IR filter?

 

Are they doing any colour mixing (with filters) over the sensor?

 

Or is it just the same as a purely "desaturated" monochrome image from an M9?

 

If so, it's hardly "authentic" or "essential" when it comes to photography. On the contrary, it's kind of ersatz.

 

IOW, I like certain BW films because of their colour response (in skin especially). This is what channel mixing from a regular colour M9 gives you.

 

Note this is *not the same* as putting a colour filter over the lens of an M9M and saying, well, that's got it from a tonality perspective.

 

BW films have colour responses to different colours in light *without* filtering; adding another filter changes the tonality again (in predictable ways for those of us brought up on BW films).

 

The M8 was superb for monochrome because of its colour bias and the weak UV filter: you could get very close to film stock response and the images showed it!

 

I haven't seen any images yet from the M9M that convince me it's doing anything special in this regard, though the high ISO response looks nice and detail very good--don't get me wrong.

 

But unless I see otherwise (and I'd happy to be convinced by someone who has actually shot the camera for awhile), I have the rare occasion to wholly agree with Mani about sticking to BW film for an "essential" BW experience, or just using a regular M9 to get a similar colour response to my favourite films in post.

[zlatkob]

But marketing isn't about testing your customers to see how stupid you can make some of them feel.

 

The date they chose - with 364 alternatives - led some people to believe that the M10 was being launched. At least one of them on this forum even sold his M9 in anticipation of the announcement (and possibly a few others).

 

Yikes! There wasn't any "testing". The rumors came from bloggers and rumor sites, not from Leica. I guess they could have called this new monochrome camera the M10 and then everybody would be happy that the date had some significance (not really). After all, it is the camera that follows the M9 and the M9P, so they could have called it the "M10 Monochrom".

 

Actually selling one's camera based on a rumor based on a mathematical possibility is unwise no matter how you look at it. Someone who depends on their cameras for any important work would never have the luxury of doing that anyway.

[Jamie Roberts]

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{snipped}

 

Actually selling one's camera based on a rumor based on a mathematical possibility is unwise no matter how you look at it. Someone who depends on their cameras for any important work would never have the luxury of doing that anyway.

 

Zlatko, while I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement, but I missed MH's warning about not taking May 10 / M10 too seriously.

 

So I thought it was pretty likely that there would be something about the M10--something, not nothing. Especially given the marketing principals that Mani mentions, the fact that other manufacturers have released new products, and the fact that the date, if not the rumour, came directly from Leica, who--as Mani keeps pointing out-- could have picked any other date to do this.

 

I think otherwise you're being a little purposely stubborn in not recognizing the potential value of announcing an M10 on May 10

 

Of course, I still have my M9

[chrism]

I was also one of those people dumb enough to think that May 10 might just be shorthand for an M10 announcement too--especially given all the hype around Nikon and Canon's new cameras..

 

We all get taken in by forum buzz. Don't feel bad!

 

 

Anyway, I can live with that disappointment. But I still don't get the M9M allure.

 

Unless, that is, someone can tell me how the M9M stacks up against various BW films in terms of tonality. Did they remove the IR filter at least? Or go back to the M8's IR filter strategy of a very thin IR filter?.

 

I would look at it as being a fairly true panchromatic film for you to do with as you please, which might mean using some yellow, orange or red filters just as you did in the film era. Those of us who have kept on using film won't be perturbed at all.

 

Are they doing any colour mixing (with filters) over the sensor?.

 

That I don't know, but I assume not from the reports from those who have played with an MM - I'm thinking of reidreviews.com in particular.

 

Or is it just the same as a purely "desaturated" monochrome image from an M9?.

 

It seems not. To be the same would ignore the increased sensitivity, greater resolution and increased DR.

 

If so, it's hardly "authentic" or "essential" when it comes to photography. On the contrary, it's kind of ersatz..

 

Depends on how you see 'photography, doesn't it?

 

IOW, I like certain BW films because of their colour response (in skin especially). This is what channel mixing from a regular colour M9 gives you..

 

As does this camera, using filters if need be, but with better ISO sensitivity, resolution and dynamic range. And some extra forethought (vide infra).

 

Note this is *not the same* as putting a colour filter over the lens of an M9M and saying, well, that's got it from a tonality perspective..

 

Agreed: it's not. It requires some forethought and perhaps some extra time. I can understand that someone who makes a living from photography might prefer to get the images and do the PP work to make them special. I appreciate I'm looking at it from the point of view of a hobbyist.

 

BW films have colour responses to different colours in light *without* filtering; adding another filter changes the tonality again (in predictable ways for those of us brought up on BW films)..

 

But can't those of us who want to do it learn the ins and outs of the sensor response to various filters, just as we learnt the quirks of particular films in the good old days?

 

The M8 was superb for monochrome because of its colour bias and the weak UV filter: you could get very close to film stock response and the images showed it!.

 

I think you meant 'weak IR filter' - but the question remains, which film did it mimic and why limit yourself to that one?

 

I haven't seen any images yet from the M9M that convince me it's doing anything special in this regard, though the high ISO response looks nice and detail very good--don't get me wrong..

 

In which case I hope you get to borrow one and see what you can do with it!

 

But unless I see otherwise (and I'd happy to be convinced by someone who has actually shot the camera for awhile), I have the rare occasion to wholly agree with Mani about sticking to BW film for an "essential" BW experience, or just using a regular M9 to get a similar colour response to my favourite films in post.

 

It might be something to do with my particular brain-wiring, but when I know I am going to get a B&W image and nothing else, as when I use a film camera, I think in terms of the final image. I imagine it in B&W, and try to capture it. I find this helpful, although it might be a 'crutch for cripples' as Mahler said. Some of us need the help, and I don't mind admitting it.

 

This will probably be a low volume special manufacturing run camera, which costs extra for those who want what it offers. I suggest those who really wanted the M10 to be announced yesterday should not look at it as a disappointment, but as yet another special edition. The M10 will, no doubt, come in time. In the interim, I'm delighted with this and will do my best to use it to make some photographs that will satisfy me. Maybe I'll even get to use my dedicated-to-film freezer for more culinary storage if this works out!

I mean no disrespect to you, Jamie, by answering you above - I merely mean to point out that it has a place, and a hungry customer base that will be pleased. This evening I'm off to Toronto for four days (and three operas!) and I'm taking my M9 and I'll try to find a couple of converted-to-monochrome images to keep me happy!

 

Chris

[lct]

...I would look at it as being a fairly true panchromatic film for you to do with as you please, which might mean using some yellow, orange or red filters just as you did in the film era. Those of us who have kept on using film won't be perturbed at all...

Sure but you'll have to apply a 3 stop compensation when using a red filter for instance, whereas i'll escape this issue with the M10 or whatever digicam and Silver Efex coloured filters. Unless i'm missing something about this otherwise tempting camera...

[chrism]

Aye, but didn't we always have to do that with film?

 

Chris

[farnz]

... Are they doing any colour mixing (with filters) over the sensor? ...

No, Jamie, there is no Bayer filter array in front of the sensor so you're getting true grey scale because each sensor photodiode (pixel) can only record light intensity. And it's not calculating intensity as the average of multiple pixels; the output from each pixel is separately recorded in the raw file

 

It will be interesting to see how the sensor matches up to different black and white emulsions, which each inevitably have their own characteristic luminance curve, ie they respond more to different light intensity levels in highlights and shadows. I would expect that it's unlikely that the M9 monochrome's sensor would have a linear response over its entire range so it may appear to emulate a particular emulsion. Time will tell I guess.

 

Pete.

[lct]

Aye, but didn't we always have to do that with film?...

Yes of course but -3 stop for the coloured filter and -1 stop to compensate for blown highlights sensitivity makes a 4 stop loss which is a bit too much for me.

[Jamie Roberts]

{Snipped}

But can't those of us who want to do it learn the ins and outs of the sensor response to various filters, just as we learnt the quirks of particular films in the good old days?

....

I think you meant 'weak IR filter' - [on the M8] but the question remains, which film did it mimic and why limit yourself to that one?

 

{snipped}

 

So let me explain a bit more...

 

BW panchromatic film is not equally responsive to all visible colours but variously responsive to all colours. Consequently, different films have different responses and different looks. Ask anyone who's shot pictures of people with Technical Pan whether they prefer that to Plus X or Agfa APX or Neopan They're all totally different panchromatic stocks.

 

So for example, most often noticed by people who shoot digital is that the magenta (red) / green response of many beloved film stocks from Agfa, Ilford and Kodak is quite different (especially in skin tones) than most digital cameras simply desaturated, which are actually more "equally" panchromatic.

 

But of course the lack of green / excess magenta mix in most pan films also has an effect on shadow response, as well as on other colours represented by grey tones, which is why you would, say, use a yellow or red filter to get more reasonable "perceptual" tonal definition from clouds or skies.

 

The "fix" for this in digital, where sensors are more or less equally panchromatic is not to just use a simple digital colour filter but to do RGB channel mixing *first.*

 

SilverEFX / AlienSkin does this "automatically" when you emulate film stocks, but they require a colour image to do it. You can also do it yourself with channel mixer or curves or any number of other ways in PS, but, again, you need a colour image first.

 

Then you can apply a digital yellow filter or whatever.

 

So if the M9M is essentially an equally pan-chromatic device, then putting colour filters over a monochrome sensor is not going to give you anything like the same results as you would have with a normal pan film--filter or not.

 

Now, with the M8--you're right, I meant weak IR filter--ask anyone who owns one what happens to the magenta / green response of the unfiltered camera!

 

Answer: lots of magenta blacks; dull greens, overall red casts... IOW the sensor itself is more sensitive to IR and consequent colour bleeding than it *should* be for good colour. This is a lot like the response (accidently, but fortuitously) of many BW films!

 

So when you desaturate the image, and start to colour mix other colours with the M8 for BW response, the files are very, very film-like right away. So it has a certain advantage by having the IR leak.

 

The M9 isn't quite the same, but the colour there is good enough to make different recipes for stunning BW tonality.

 

This has nothing to do with DR, ISO response, or detail. Which I'm sure are fantastic on an M9M.

 

Hope that helps explain.

 

My complaints / questions are not about the time it would take to get fast results from an M9M but about the impossibility of getting film-like results from such a camera

 

Of course, the fastest way to get a TriX or Agfa APX look is to shoot Trix or APX.

 

And no disrespect taken at all Chris! I hope you enjoy your time in Toronto. Make sure, if you drink beer, to go by the Mill St. Brewery in Distillery District and try some of theirs

[Jamie Roberts]

Aye, but didn't we always have to do that with film?

 

Chris

 

Short answer: no, not to get the colour response desired. Longer answer above

[Jamie Roberts]

No, Jamie, there is no Bayer filter array in front of the sensor so you're getting true grey scale because each sensor photodiode (pixel) can only record light intensity. {snipped}

 

It must have an IR filter, though, right? There are other ways of messing with colour response than a bayer filter.

[AbbeyFoto]

And unlike the JPEGs you get out of the M9 these are truly indicative of what the M Monochrom can deliver. Raw files still have their uses but from a quality perspective you could just as well shoot JPEG only (which I would never do with the M9)

 

There are no big changes from the M9; the electronics is basically the same, the raw files have the same bit depth etc.. The difference is in the sensor. Due to its increased base sensitivity of ISO 320, dynamic range increases by one stop at the same ISO setting. There is also a difference in the way the histogram is calculated: it is based on raw data rather than the JPEG preview.

 

Could I ask for clarification? Are JPEGs as good as raw files or not?

[honcho]

It must have an IR filter, though, right? There are other ways of messing with colour response than a bayer filter.

 

It has. Unfortunately.

[J Mitchum]

Just because it's time. And the next Photokina is in 2014

 

Apple learned long ago that it is far better to announce a product on your own terms rather than at a time when all your competitors are doing the same. This is what Leica did yesterday and they got all the coverage to themselves.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[J Mitchum]

Why is everyone assuming that a M10 is coming in September? I've trawled the thread and tried to understand what was said last night but I must have missed the reference. Can someone explain?

 

Dr. Andreas Kaufmann, Leica's head of supervisory board, refused to comment on ongoing product development, but said that he looked at the M series as a family of cameras with different models such as the M9 and the possible M10 sold alongside each other. "Let's talk around Photokina," he added. "We have two events this year [this one in Berlin and Photokina in September] because we have such a huge product roadmap at the moment."

[mjh]

Could I ask for clarification? Are JPEGs as good as raw files or not?

Raw files will always be more flexible but as far as resolution is concerned, the JPEGs from the M Monochrom already deliver the goods (unlike those of the M9).