AlanG Posted August 12, 2008 Share #161 Posted August 12, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's very likely that this specific part of the holding-mechanism of the base-plate is the weakest link of the system (the other side is a steel/brass-combination, the tripod mount itself is also steel) with it's ~2mm thick mg-die-cast. But from my personal experience and compared to other mechanical parts in the camera-industry this is very likely to be enough. Of course, the base-plate can be ripped apart - just a matter of strength applied to it and of course production-failures during the cast-process (it can affect a series of bodies - die-cast is a serial-production process) will cause failure, too. What do you mean by enough? Let's say you are shooting with the M8 on a tripod. You pick up the tripod and put it over your shoulder and walk around with the camera mounted. Is that OK? How about running with the camera mounted? Common if you are doing dusk shots and are in a hurry to get from one spot to the next before the light is gone. As for injury potential. It is not uncommon for a wedding photographer to shoot from a church balcony using a tripod. Or from the top of a landing where the camera leans over the railing a bit to shoot a group posed on a staircase. I've used Super Clamps to attach cameras directly to railings many times. Shooting from theater balconies or overlooking spectators in sports arenas and stadiums is also fairly common. Originally the mechanism also served to open and close the light trap on film cassettes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 Hi AlanG, Take a look here M9 on tripod - bottom part broken anyone else ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stevelap Posted August 12, 2008 Share #162 Posted August 12, 2008 "Sorry georg, not sure if you're a Formula 1 designer also" I'm an engineer and I've worked for company that made components for Le Mans-winning-cars - I hope that's enough and my comments written in poor English are appreciated anyway ;-). Of course georg, and your English is fine. My comment was really about FD being a renowned F1 designer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 12, 2008 Share #163 Posted August 12, 2008 They weren't pushing hard enough then. Clearly, if you clamp the camera, screw a rod into the tripod socket and then pull on the other end with a hydraulic jack, something is going to give way at some point and common sense suggests either the circular latching mechanism or the casting... Yes, obviously you can break anything if you apply enough pressure. I think what they were trying to do in the lab is replicate the failure with 'reasonable' torque applied to the baseplate--which presumably would be more than one would put on it in normal use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted August 12, 2008 Share #164 Posted August 12, 2008 I've wondered about this failure mode with my own M8's - I use a grip base with RRS plate on it for tripod work and if I have too much tension on the ballhead I can sometimes feel the camera/plate flex slightly when I go to move it. So far, so good. Time to be VERY careful with this I think ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 12, 2008 Share #165 Posted August 12, 2008 What's bad about this (IMHO) is not so much the failure itself but Leica's ignorant, knee jerk reaction. So far, it's actually only Leica's REPORTED reaction. That's why I'm interested in what the person at Leica actually said. It's of course inconceivable that using a camera on a tripod could be seen as user error. What was the exact wording of Leica's response? It seems inconceivable that a camera manufacturer would say something so stupid. Leica New Jersey always furnishes a terse explanation with its estimates. If anyone is being billed for a repair by Leica, he has received a written explanation. Steve is right--what are Leica's words? Without a response to that question, we are speculating. The baseplate didn't fail, but the baseplate is still to blame. Putting a tripod mount on a removable baseplate is simply a bad idea. As has been mentioned, Leica has been doing this for nearly a century without trouble. But the M8 introduces a number of changes: 1) The body casting is made of a different material. That makes no difference before M8 because: 2) The latch mechanism was previously inboard, not on the body shell. 3) The latch mechanism previously rotated through 180° to go from free to tight. On the M8, 90° is supposed to suffice. A greater contact area (the earlier design) means a greater area over which to spread stress, with less stress per unit area. 4) The tripod socket was previously nearer the baseplate's attachment point, offering reduced likelihood of flexing the baseplate. 5) On the pre-M8 cameras, because the latch mechanism was inboard, any flex generated by use of the tripod socket pulled the baseplate latch claw tighter against the body latch flange. On the M8, because the latch mechanism is to the outside of the camera, any flexing caused by the tripod socket pulls the locking claw _away_ from the body's locking flange, creating additional stress variations as the baseplate flexes. In addition, the end of the baseplate flange pulls on and may cause additional flexing of the body casting. Note also that the stress is applied where the body casting is at its weakest, i.e. at the end of one of the clamshell halves. Again, that is a feature of the construction of the M8. The above points apply to all M8s and to all of us. There's one more point that will apply only to some of us: 6) For those using non-quick-release plates, with tilt-pan heads, say, because the M8's tripod socket has been moved away from the end of the camera, lens focusing tabs sometimes press against the top of the tripod head. This can exert additional stress against the latch mechanism as shown above. There are good reasons for Leica's choice of design and materials for the M8, but it seems to me it is becoming clear that in the case of the baseplate attachment, a re-think may be in order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgay Posted August 12, 2008 Share #166 Posted August 12, 2008 “What happened to Bill's camera is disturbing, but it's certainly not a trend or necessarily an indication of a fatally flawed design.” I agree entirely. Why has no one mentioned the Leica handgrip for the M8. I have one and it is merely an extension of the base plate. The entire weight of the camera, plus Noctilux, is supported on an angle of the base plate and camera housing. Anyone heard of a problem! If people are worried, they should consider the M-Mate. The manufacturers claim that its Alu-Magnesium milled structure will flex less than brass. It also allows you to add and remove memory cards without removing the base plate. A solution for all those fretting about formatting numerous cards all in one go. Sounds better than worrying. Meanwhile another poster frets: “I have a sinking feeling that this is the first of many of this type of failure.”. There is a Russian joke about a man who finds his wife in the kitchen, weeping uncontrollably. “Why do you cry, my love.” “I just looked at the knives hanging from the wall and I thought of my sons.” “We don’t have any children,” he answers. “I know, but one day we will and I can't bear the thought of them cutting themselves.” This joke reminds me of a few posters to this site. Regards, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted August 13, 2008 Share #167 Posted August 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) markgay wrote "If people are worried, they should consider the M-Mate. The manufacturers claim that its Alu-Magnesium milled structure will flex less than brass. It also allows you to add and remove memory cards without removing the base plate. A solution for all those fretting about formatting numerous cards all in one go." Whether this will be a recurring problem time will tell . Let us hope this is just an isolated incident . However, we don't buy cameras , cars , other tools , gadgets etc etc , in order to fix them with after market ad-ons . With regard to changing memory cards - I think you missed the point altogether . The complaint was ; that is was awkward if not difficult to quickly change cards . So who's fretting about formatting numerous cards , as a matter of fact what does formatting have to do with it. ? However, thanks for the wonderful Russian saying. PeterP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted August 13, 2008 Share #168 Posted August 13, 2008 Makes buying a Comet on the second hand market a bit dodgy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 13, 2008 Share #169 Posted August 13, 2008 Makes buying a Comet on the second hand market a bit dodgy. Aircraft? Camera? Comic book? Comic book character? Train? Goldfish? Dinghy? Celestial body?? ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 13, 2008 Share #170 Posted August 13, 2008 Aircraft? Camera? Comic book? Comic book character? Train? Goldfish? Dinghy? Celestial body?? ... Ford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted August 13, 2008 Share #171 Posted August 13, 2008 Aircraft? Camera? Comic book? Comic book character? Train? Goldfish? Dinghy? Celestial body?? ... Comet = first commercial jet airliner, immortalized as one of the first metal fatigue case studies in aircraft crash analysis. Ever wondered why aircraft passenger windows aren't rectangular? This is why. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
morffin Posted August 13, 2008 Share #172 Posted August 13, 2008 Yikes!I put my M8 on a monopod a lot and hold it above crowds......going to stop doing that. Lucky the plate hasnt failed and killed someone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 13, 2008 Share #173 Posted August 13, 2008 Yikes!I put my M8 on a monopod a lot and hold it above crowds......going to stop doing that. Lucky the plate hasn't failed and killed someone. You can secure the camera strap to the monopod for safety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
morffin Posted August 13, 2008 Share #174 Posted August 13, 2008 Yeah...Im starting to wonder if this camera is worth the hassle anymore. My lenses arent locking in place... the magenta nightmare.... and now a poss. baseplate failure. Might just punt on this and get the new 5d update. Sad to say this....... I really used to love this camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 13, 2008 Share #175 Posted August 13, 2008 As I understand it, all the failures have occurred as a result of the camera being mounted on a tripod; looking at the grip, it's only by focing the grip handle away from the camera body that extra pressure on the casting could contribute to the failure, not usual. Running around with the camera on the top of a tripod or monopod would seem to be risky - abruptly stop/start/change direction of movement and, depending on the orientation, the force on the camera is transmitted from the base plate through the casting at the point where the fractures are occurring. That's why destructive testing could show what the theoretical limits are and how closely they are reached in a rough and tumble environment. If there's a decent safety margin, individual failures are more likely down to casting quality. Of course, there are pictures of broken Nikon and Canon bodies - my 200-400 lens would quite happily tear the lens mount off the front of the camera if I let it but most would accept that a 3kg lens and huge bending moment will strain 6 small screws and their threads to the limit. OTOH, using the much lighter M8 on a tripod would not immediately appear to be a risk but appears to be. As I said before, Leica should be looking at each failure to determine the cause; clearly, work is required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted August 13, 2008 Share #176 Posted August 13, 2008 Also don't forget, that so far only Bill has provided solid proof of the incident, and Leica has said it was the first and only one. Maybe we are jumping to conclusions early? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerx Posted August 13, 2008 Share #177 Posted August 13, 2008 I am so glad I bought the Luigi case with the tripod screw in the bottom. I don't know if the case itself would take some of the load but at least the camera won't fall off if the plate fails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerx Posted August 13, 2008 Share #178 Posted August 13, 2008 “What happened to Bill's camera is disturbing, but it's certainly not a trend or necessarily an indication of a fatally flawed design.” I agree entirely. Why has no one mentioned the Leica handgrip for the M8. I have one and it is merely an extension of the base plate. The entire weight of the camera, plus Noctilux, is supported on an angle of the base plate and camera housing. Anyone heard of a problem! Regards, Mark I don't know how other people use their cameras with their tripods but I tend to put a lot of force on mine. Lets say the M8 is mounted on a ball head. Many people including myself would tighten the ball head just enough so it'll stay in place and not fall over but would still move if some force is applied. And when you want to change the position of the camera to compose you just move the camera but the ball head as attached to the bottom plate must move with it with ease else there will be stress on where the camera connects to the head. Many people don't bother to loosen up the ball head when they compose. With the M8 grip the entire camera with the grip when used handheld are always moving in the same direction in sync so there is no undue stress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 13, 2008 Share #179 Posted August 13, 2008 Also don't forget, that so far only Bill has provided solid proof of the incident, and Leica has said it was the first and only one. Maybe we are jumping to conclusions early? The poster who reopened this thread has so far only posted that one message to the forum - and that was 5 days ago. I think it would be useful if he responded to some of the questions that have been asked regarding Leica's actual response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted August 13, 2008 Share #180 Posted August 13, 2008 I have to say this whole base plate thing worries me more than any other negative aspect of the M8. I've always been suspicious of its inherent weakness but because I am not an engineer I've assumed that Leica must have a reason for putting what feels to me like an inferior baseplate on the M8, compared to say the baseplate on the M6 TTL I owned, onto the camera. I don't like the locating lug, as well. It is so shallow you can image it wearing down with use, unlike the semi-circular lug on the M6. I don't use a tripod much, only for the occasional experiment in HDR but I am concerned, especially when using say my SAA90 that the plate cannot take the weight/ LouisB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.