The Psychology of M8/M9 Ownership

[Frank Black]

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I think there are lots of factors

 

Without wanting to be on the personal side, there are a lot of users in this forum that just see Leica as a Luxury item,

 

When i started coming to this forum the m8 was new,

 

For me Leica was always a dream that i could not afford, sudenly i could, and i went over all the flaws and learned to value the camera and its flaws

 

But even after reading so much about it, i had to breathe deep,and not think about the money i had spend...lets face it...the high iso, the ir problems,the sensor problems,the shutter problems...

 

and about the 9 ,i do not own one, but i also read about it and there are problems...

 

But thats something with almost every camera on the market...

 

Problem is, when someone goes for a Leica, it hopes for perfection, and its not...therefore the frustration

 

But...

 

If you use it as a instrument, to shoot...to make photography then you will be smiling all along....

 

Its a great tool, but one should think and be sure of the step he will be making..its a expensive piece of gear...and lot of people will want perfection..no flaws...

 

I do think that on the internet, the forums tend to be less and less social and polite, and are used to discharge frustrations...

 

I read sometimes forum members with a arrogant atitude,sometimes even childish and pedant...

 

This goes for the ones who complaint and for the ones who react almost as offended that someones criticises Leica....

 

Thats a pitty...

 

i love my M8...with is loud shutter, bad high iso, vertical lines and mangenta cast...

 

But i can understand that some people cannot accept it...as some find it hard that the M9 also has certain flaws...

 

The term troll-it is a very ''internet'' way of beeing childish and unpolite...

 

A forum should allow almost all kind of opinions...if i do not like what i read i ignore and try not to take it personal...

 

I have much more dificulty with topics talking about pimping a camera, with a nice pink leather bag that goes well with your hat, or the purse you should buy to go along with your gear...

But i understand that some people like to talk about it...therefore i do not comment...

 

It should be easy..just like that

 

I do enjoy to look at the photos here, and learn about post production, or the best way to shoot with a rangefinder, how to expose, how to compose, which rendering certain lens has and so on...

 

But sometimes...man...

 

Try to take life and certain topics less serious...

 

and smile along, make some nice photos, and enjoy life (and your Leica)

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[bocaburger]

Has anyone else noticed the growing number of "I just bought an M8/M9 and I think it sucks" threads? Are there any psychologists on the forum that can shed some light on why someone would buy an expensive camera only to immediately denigrate it in public to the very group that supports it?

 

Is this buyer's remorse, or is there something else at work here?

 

Or are they just trolls who actually don't own the cameras they claim to?

 

If it's a matter of features they don't like, then it would seem like the result of poor pre-purchase research, and that might be kind of embarrassing for some egos. OTOH in this day where local camera shops are all but history, and people are more and more buying sight-unseen, it's more possible to be blindsided...especially if one's pre-purchase research was done entirely on forums where there's a pro-brand bias if not an outright love-fest

 

OTOH if someone is thinking their camera "sucks" because after a few days or weeks of use something goes haywire requiring them to ship it off for a lengthy stay in the service department, then I wouldn't be too harsh on that person for venting a little frustration.

[skinnfell]

To me a Leica is similar to a Harley Davidson:

 

There are a lot more people who want one than there are who can handle one.

[Jeff S]

Pico has it right; the seating position affords easy control.

 

In fact, the analogy works for me in that I won't own a camera if I don't first like how it allows me to see and focus; and I won't own a bike if I don't like the way the seating position allows me to control it. Regardless of other attributes, if those don't work, I pass. Leica and Harley meet my threshold tests with flying colors. The brand appeal is far secondary, although it does jack up the price.

 

Jeff

 

Now I see Pico's post is gone...the point was that Harley's big twins are easy to control since the seat has a low center of gravity. (Just don't lean if you aren't moving!)

[NZDavid]

Critics can actually make the world a better place by highlighting what needs to be fixed. As long as they don't get obsessed. (No chance of that here, then. ) With Leica, critics tend to fall into three main categories:

 

1) Perfectionists who expect all Leica products to be above reproach, effortlessly superior to everything else, and function perfectly at all times -- and get slightly annoyed when they discover Leicas can, very occasionally, be subject to the same heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that modern digital products are heir to. This especially applies when comparing digital Leicas with film Leicas. Same scenario when comparing other products, like "over-engineered" Mercedes-Benzes of the past with some later models. Catch-cry is, "They don't make them like they used to!" The expectation is that spending a decent amount of money guarantees 100% quality. Sometimes justified, sometimes not.

 

2) Technophiles who want he latest of everything even before it has been thoroughly tested: Why doesn't the Leica M have an electronic viewfinder, video, multiple scene modes, GPS, and 64,000 ISO capability to capture high speed black cats in compare darkness? If you want a myriad of extraneous non-essential features, then of course Leica M is not your best choice.

 

3) Fashion victims who have no idea what a Leica M is or how it works but buy based on the badge alone, then find a generic DSLR or compact would have suited them better.

[chrism]

One is entitled to post what one likes - however it would be appropriate if someone posting dissatisfaction actually understood what they were posting.

 

Which raises an interesting question related to the philosophy of the mods and admins of the forum. There is no free speech on an internet forum; we are here at the tolerance of those that run the forum. Repeat offenders who seem to troll the forum with crass complaints probably should not enjoy the privilege of continued membership, but that is a decision for the team running the place and they are more forgiving than most. It isn't always easy to maintain the desired atmosphere in a forum - if everyone agrees on everything it will be boring, but there will always be those that cry 'Censorship!' when a post or its author is removed. We need a good deal of convergence, yet a sufficiency of stimulating debate. The trick is to judge whether those who go against the general view truly hold that view, in which case they are welcome for stimulating us, or are posting this way simply to annoy, in which case they should be invited to leave. I think the balance here is pretty good, and the moderators let the members identify trolling threads and dispense just enough ridicule to extinguish them.

 

Chris

[pico]

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Pico has it right; the seating position affords easy control.

 

In fact, the analogy works for me in that I won't own a camera if I don't first like how it allows me to see and focus; and I won't own a bike if I don't like the way the seating position allows me to control it. Regardless of other attributes, if those don't work, I pass. Leica and Harley meet my threshold tests with flying colors. The brand appeal is far secondary, although it does jack up the price.

 

Jeff

 

Now I see Pico's post is gone...the point was that Harley's big twins are easy to control since the seat has a low center of gravity. (Just don't lean if you aren't moving!)

 

I suddenly had to leave and did not want to re-think the post so I deleted it. Here is one of the last two Harley choppers I built about 20 years ago. The next one had a different rear fender (lower) and lower headlight. http://www.digoliardi.net/butcher1.jpg

 

At the same time I had a very hot '81 BMW R100RS upon which I got the biggest speeding ticket of my life, and a Ducati 900SS which I later gave to a young lady who was #1 amateur road racer in Minnesota. The secret of the 900SS is that I could lean it so far over I had to tuck in an elbow, but it had so little 'real' torque that if I spazzed the throttle in a turn, it would not high-side. I quit riding when I turned 50. Too many aches and pains.

 

Back to Leicas...

[algrove]

People in this world tend to suffer. Everybody tries to cope with suffering in his own way.

One of the ( not so efficient ) methods trying to cope with suffering, is being addicted to something. People can be addicted to almost anything, big or small. Unhealthy addictions or minor ones ( for instance collecting something cheap like coins or stamps etc. ).

 

For some people unhealthy addictions can be to much - : drugs , money, sex, you name it ( buying new expensive camera gear in an impuls? ). The focus in this is to get rid of an unpleasant feeling. But being addicted to something implies also that the suffering comes back once the addicted has had " his kicks " .

 

IMO the complainer is suffering and he is trying to share his suffering in order to get what everybody wants to get in such a moment: recognition.

 

 

Only the problem for other forum members is, that it is difficult to see the complainer as a suffering being who only wants recognition, because in the process he is probably insulting the other forum member.

 

Sadly, the only thing I suffer from is G.A.S.

[Washington]

First thing you gotta be drunk.

[grahamcoad]

Years and years ago, I wanted a Leica, but could not possibly afford one. I had an inexpensive SLR, but wanted to try a rangefinder so bought one of the USSR jobs.

 

I remember now, how odd and difficult it was just to load film and use at first, making the funny little rangefinder image coincide... REMEMBERING to do it, re-learning the viewing and focusing experience, learning what the funny lines and numbers on the lenses meant... adding lenses, variable viewfinders....it was LEARNING about PHOTOGRAPHY, and how to make the pictures I wanted with a different tool.

 

It was DIFFICULT, and that was just transferring from a manual mechanical SLR in 1974..Imagine now, coming from a digital, automatic everything camera and ALWAYS having has auto focusing zoom lenses that don't even have depth of field marking on them... (Depth of WHAT???)...

 

I can only imagine someone coming from a digital SLR picking up and trying to comprehend what a Leica M8/9 is FOR, much less HOW to use it competently, and the old, old saying comes true again....

 

"A bad workman blames his tools"

[Symeon]

Human desire is a complicated thing, but fundamentally it is mimetic. We "borrow" the desires of others hoping to become "other than ourselves". But as soon as the object of desire (often too costly or hard to appropriate) becomes "ours" we don't know what to do with it. We proceed then to get frustrated and depressed and we accuse that object, like children who - being afraid of punishment - put the blame on others. An M will not make one into a better photographer like rubbing a piece of clay furiously will not eventually turn it into a shining mirror. And you don't have to be Freud to fathom this.

 

regards.

[mca]

I find it quite natural actually.

 

Leicas are very expensive cameras. Beyond rational expensive cameras. You can buy something more advanced and with greater capabilities for half the money or even less when you account for lenses and all. Because of this, most of the people who buy Leicas are not beginners, cause a beginner wouldn't start with a 7k€ camera (with one lens). They have had other cameras before, probably modern DSLRs, and are accustomed to a certain type of process to make photographs. They probably never used Manual focus, for example. But because they read about Leica, because they heard about Leica, they create expectations that it will be worth the jump (and the expense!).

 

When they get the camera, the first times they use it, it's a nightmare. It's like learning to photograph again. Can't focus, can't burst shoot, you turn up your ISO and the image gets noisy, the LCD on the back of the camera is rubbish, the battery doesn't last long, it's a pain to open the camera and take the card out, no zoom lenses, etc. A lot of things you came to depend on aren't there. And so the natural question arises: Why did I spend so much money on a camera that is so limited compared to what I had? My pictures come out noisy and unfocused. Frustration sets in. And so you bash it.

 

For me, the only way to really know if you like a Leica M or not, is to shoot exclusively with one for at least 3 months, preferably 6. Only after you learn how to use it and stop thinking about how you're doing it can you begin to appreciate it for what it is, a simple, beautiful, outstanding little camera that can function as an extension to your eye.

 

It's not for everyone though and it's not for every type of photography. It's a niche product, really.You either fall in love with it, or you don't. And if you don't, you'll sell it quickly and go back to your blessed DSLRs with all its bells and whistles. And we who love it, have to understand that.

[pop]

Sk

And we who love it, have to understand that.

 

I do not have to do anything of the sort. I knew what a real camera is and how to handle it before the thought of buying a Leica entered my head. It's a superior tool for some tasks. I do not have to care whether other customers have the same needs or the same satisfaction. Caveat emptor.

[rramesh]

1) Some folks want to experience the camera and buy it.

2) Some folks want to experience the brand and buy into it.

3) Some folks want the experience of the crowd and buy in.

 

This forum brings all such folks together, albeit, with different needs, expectations and desired outcomes.

 

Unfortunately, in this forum there could be folks who are not part of 1, 2 or 3 above.

[Paulus]

I think it's more difficult in this age to buy a M9 , than it was to buy a M6 twenty years ago.

 

Auto focus then was not so fast. The cameras were not so solid. IMO the M6 was more solid than the F3, so I really liked its solidness. Also the manual focussing was better and faster than the Nikon F3. So I was really glad with it.

 

Nowadays the competition is much higher. Autofocus of many camera's is even as good as the focussing way of the M9. The M9 is solid, but other cameras are too. And if you never used anything else than an autofocus system. I can imagine the gap between an AF-camera and a Leica M9.

 

The reason so many new people step into this world is beyond me. What I can say is that the average M9 buyers age is 46 years ( for German speaking people http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/173673-wie-alt-sind-wir-im-durchschnitt-15.html#post2041011). But most of these people have a long history of using Leica Camera's so they will not complain the same way, because they knew already what to expect.

 

I don't think you can get such an expectation from a brochure. You have to experience it and sometimes it goes wrong, loosing a lot of money.

 

I didn't start a survey in the English speaking part of the forum about the average age of the M9 user , because one of the moderators told me that such a threat already existed for the " Leica user " thinking that this was the same. But now I believe that at this moment, there are " Leica users " and M9 users and it might be, that the character of these people is becoming slightly different.

[andyedward]

Perhaps some people buy a leica thinking it will enable them to shoot like HCB or another famous leica shooter from the past

[jaapv]

Not perhaps .... It is one of the main causes of "Leica sucks" threads.

[Double Negative]

The M cameras, having very little in the way of "features" puts the onus on the shooter to deliver. What many find out is that they actually suck... Then blame the Leica for "not delivering."

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[pgk]

I think that one of the problems in comparing photographic equipment are the numerous and varied parameters which 'define' ('ill-define') the end results. Some non-photographic equipment can be rated in its effectiveness with relative ease, because both the end result and the equipment's operability are relatively easy to define. With cameras this is far less easy and there is often a belief that, as with much else, quality and ease of use are primarily defined by cost. Obviously with photographic equipment this is partly true, but not entirely. There are a myriad of intangibles which go together to create an 'experience' of using a camera and these may or may not include ease of use (Ebony 5x4s are hardly cheap and are far from easy to use).

 

I am of the firm opinion that the Leica M camera is a 'photographer's' camera - in much the same way that some cars are 'driver's cars'. Personally I see a car as transport and would never buy a 'driver's car' because it would be utterly wasted on me - I know my limitations in this respect. I have though met people who have bought (and actually been advised as to) which car to buy to suit the image that they wish to portray/emulate. I suspect that there are some Leica M owners who use M equipment for a not dis-similar reason (the 'HCB effect').

 

Personally, I simply like shooting small rangefinders, I like the discipline that small, fixed focal length lenses impose. I like having to make as many decisions as are needed to produce the image that I want myself. In short the whole experience of using an M rangefinder. And I will always pick up my M camera in preference to my dSLR - if that is that the M is able to take the images I require.

 

I suspect that the psychology bit is more about what gets someone into M usage in the first place and this might well include the perception that price equates with ease of use and startlingly better results, the ability to own a camera made famous by some great photographers, the desire to be different, the decision to downsize from far bulkier equipment, and no doubt much more. However, the psychology of a long term M user is probably rather different.