euston Posted April 11, 2012 Share #41 Posted April 11, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Has anyone else noticed the growing number of "I just bought an M8/M9 and I think it sucks" threads? Are there any psychologists on the forum that can shed some light on why someone would buy an expensive camera only to immediately denigrate it in public to the very group that supports it? Is this buyer's remorse, or is there something else at work here? I can’t say that I’ve noticed an increase in such posts but, when they occur, I reckon it’s often a case of thwarted expectations which are, at least, partly generated by Leica itself. Not everyone who buys one of these cameras has the basic photography knowhow to use it successfully, let alone the expertise to develop the image properly after it’s shot. Some people will accept that they need to brush up their skills. Others will become disillusioned and resentful, especially if they feel they were misled by Leica’s marketing. Leica targets the luxury market and ramps up people’s expectations. Disappointment is bound to result in some cases. You don’t have to be a gullible fool to be seduced by Leica’s marketing with its assertions of ultimate manufacturing quality, references to Leica’s unique place in the history of photography and to the incomparable images that can be obtained using Leica equipment. When I was looking at the M8 and subsequently the M9 I was told by two different Leica dealers that using a digital M would make me a better photographer. I’m an old enough hand to have spotted the flaw in that sales pitch but, I suspect, it’s exactly what some prospective buyers want to hear. What a let down when the promised transformation doesn’t come to pass! Sure, some people are deluding themselves but they’re getting more than a little help from the Leica marketing machine. I'm not for a moment suggesting that Leica should change a marketing strategy that appears to be serving the company well. I do think, though, that we shouldn't be too hard on those who become casualties of it and vent their disappointment in places like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 11, 2012 Posted April 11, 2012 Hi euston, Take a look here The Psychology of M8/M9 Ownership. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
magosak Posted April 11, 2012 Share #42 Posted April 11, 2012 I guess it's called 'freedom of speech.' What's been consistent with Leica forums over the many years is an intolerance for any contrary opinions that would denigrate the brand or product. What's the psychology of that? I recently joined this forum and that's exactly the feeling I got. It's very unfortunate as it creates a closed society and turns away the new adopters - unless they sing the praise of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted April 11, 2012 Share #43 Posted April 11, 2012 This isn't just a case of Leica thwarting expectations, in fact the Stones highlighted the very same issue in in 1965: I can't get no satisfaction I can't get no satisfaction 'Cause I try and I try and I try and I try I can't get no, I can't get no When I'm drivin' in my car And that man comes on the radio He's tellin' me more and more About some useless information Supposed to fire my imagination I can't get no, oh no, no, no Hey hey hey, that's what I say I can't get no satisfaction I can't get no satisfaction 'Cause I try and I try and I try and I try I can't get no, I can't get no When I'm watchin' my T.V. And that man comes on to tell me How white my shirts can be But he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke The same cigarrettes as me I can't get no, oh no, no, no Hey hey hey, that's what I say I can't get no satisfaction I can't get no girl reaction 'Cause I try and I try and I try and I try I can't get no, I can't get no When I'm ridin' round the world And I'm doin' this and I'm signing that And I'm tryin' to make some girl Who tells me baby better come back later next week 'Cause you see I'm on a losing streak I can't get no, oh no, no, no Hey hey hey, that's what I say I can't get no, I can't get no I can't get no satisfaction No satisfaction, no satisfaction, no satisfaction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 11, 2012 Share #44 Posted April 11, 2012 I don't see any trolling here. Am i missing something? Some of us should recall from the 'old' forum what a troll can be. Also why insulting one (or more?) LUF members w/o any evidence this way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 11, 2012 Share #45 Posted April 11, 2012 People don't "buy stuff" anymore. They make "lifestyle choices". It's no longer about whether or not something is fit for purpose, because far too often the only purpose is to make the purchaser feel better about themselves for a moment and help them to be part of the segment of society to which they aspire/belong. We saw a huge backlash with the M8 because it was flawed and compromised in a number of key areas combined with a big influx of new owners who expected absolute perfection (and automation) out of the box. Forgive me, Bill, but I can't help but see the irony in your comment. You've been one of the loudest voices here about the "flawed and compromised" M8; these are often your exact choice of words. For many of us, however, we just care that the camera is able to produce wonderful pics in capable hands. The rest to us is irrelevant as it does not affect the work, and any issues can be easily resolved, for our own needs. You, as a non-user of the product, can't help but regularly voice your own view, whether that's based on a (non) purchase decision, or perhaps a lifestyle choice (film M versus digital M). There apparently is as much psychology to non-ownership as there is to ownership. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magosak Posted April 11, 2012 Share #46 Posted April 11, 2012 Sorry but I don't get this - if you don't like Leica cameras then don't use them. I'm sick of being told by people who either don't use or are new to Leicas that they need to change this or that or being harangued by a long list of features that are all wrong. If I wanted a "me too" digital camera, I would go out and buy one. If I wasn't getting the results that I liked I would LEARN to use it properly. What I wouldn't do is go on a forum and tell other people who have used the camera for years what I don't like about it and how crap it is. People can't be bothered to learn and want instant success. It's not elitism to practice, practice and practice to make oneself BETTER. Thank you for demonstrating the kind of behavior I was referring to. There is the thing called "tolerance". Some people can benefit a lot by practicing a little bit of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted April 11, 2012 Share #47 Posted April 11, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't see any trolling here. Am i missing something? Some of us should recall from the 'old' forum what a troll can be. Also why insulting one (or more?) LUF members w/o any evidence this way? I'm afraid that in common with most online forums it's likely that this one isn't immune from trolling behaviour from time to time (take a look at post no.17 from earlier in the thread). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 11, 2012 Share #48 Posted April 11, 2012 I can see how it could be unpalatable if worded harshly, but I do agree that it is a bit strange to blame the tool if it does not perform to expectations. A good photographer can get a "good photograph"(whatever that may be) irrespective of the camera he uses, provided he knows and works within the limitatons of that camera. If he does not, disappointment will result, no matter what the capabilities of the camera are. In short, these complaints are a result of a combination of ignorance of the properties of the camera and pilot error. The blame, as noted here, lays of course with marketing hype and overzealous salesmen, but I think it is not too much to ask to do some research and some introspection before yielding to the all-too-human mee-too urge that tells us "I could do as well as he is doing if I only had, like him..." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share #49 Posted April 11, 2012 I realize the internet is open territory for any and all opinions, but this is the Leica User Forum. I mean, you have to go out of your way to join this group, and it amazes me that anyone would do so only to make negative comments. I mean, why bother???? I don't care how bad a meal might be at a restaurant, I would never make a comment before leaving. So why do people think that it's acceptable to come here, to our little Leica corner of the internet, and insult the products that give so many members joy and allow them to express their creativity. Constructive criticism of a product is one thing, but what has been occurring lately is far beyond that. If you don't like French Impressionists, then don't visit the Musée d'Orsay... If you don't like spicy chili oil then pass on the Hot Pot restaurants in Chengdu and Chongqing... And if you don't like Leica products then why are you posting here... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted April 11, 2012 Share #50 Posted April 11, 2012 And if you don't like Leica cameras then please go somewhere else... Why? What if I like M and R lenses? That's a bit unnecessary IMO. A good debate uses both sides of the coin, you don't have to be Michael Schumacher to own a Ferrari do you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 11, 2012 Share #51 Posted April 11, 2012 I'm afraid that in common with most online forums it's likely that this one isn't immune from trolling behaviour from time to time (take a look at post no.17 from earlier in the thread). Nothing personal of course but sounds to me that some of us are becoming overly sensitive to criticism, i don't know why. The links you're quoting here have little to do with trolling as we used to meet it in the old Forum. To be a bit provocative, i would say that i see more fanboyism that trolling in all this so far. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted April 11, 2012 Share #52 Posted April 11, 2012 Not everyone who buys one of these cameras has the basic photography knowhow to use it successfully, let alone the expertise to develop the image properly after it’s shot. Some people will accept that they need to brush up their skills. Others will become disillusioned and resentful, especially if they feel they were misled by Leica’s marketing. Yes, that's a good point. Leica presumably recognised this when they introduced the much derided 'S' snapshot mode in the M8.2 to help reassure the LVMH crowd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpalme Posted April 11, 2012 Share #53 Posted April 11, 2012 I've made my share of negative Leica comments. I think everything needs to be discussed. I'm simply willing to put up with the faults since I love the system over all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 11, 2012 Share #54 Posted April 11, 2012 A negative list of the things you don't like one after the other is sure to get a response from people. What do you really expect people to say to that? If you go out of your way to be negative you are most likely going to reap what you sow. Constructive, balanced and intelligent criticism with some personal feedback on how the product could be made better is always welcomed, respected and encouraged. We all understand the idiosyncrasies, quirks and flaws of the M system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 11, 2012 Share #55 Posted April 11, 2012 That is someting different, Brian - The comments referred to here are in the class of: "I bought this camera and a Noctilux and I cannot get a decent photograph because the AF sucks..." (slight hyperbole;)) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted April 11, 2012 Share #56 Posted April 11, 2012 Meh. Whatever... I've bought a lot of Leica products. I did my homework, knew what I was getting and I'm perfectly happy with every one of them. Carry on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stussy2k Posted April 11, 2012 Share #57 Posted April 11, 2012 Returning to the OPs original question (and not that I am proficient in psychological behavoir) I think professionals refer to it as "online disinhibition effect" (Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Also found this article http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/health/psychology/20essa.html which quotes: In a 2004 article in the journal CyberPsychology & Behavior, John Suler, a psychologist at Rider University in Lawrenceville, N.J., suggested that several psychological factors lead to online disinhibition: the anonymity of a Web pseudonym; invisibility to others; the time lag between sending an e-mail message and getting feedback; the exaggerated sense of self from being alone; and the lack of any online authority figure. Dr. Suler notes that disinhibition can be either benign — when a shy person feels free to open up online — or toxic, as in flaming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted April 11, 2012 Share #58 Posted April 11, 2012 With every product there is a percentage of unhappy customers, some gripes are justified, others are just plain unreasonable and often based on unrealistic expectations. The instant global reach and hype of advertising has raised these expectations to unrealistic levels and exacerbated the issue. This is not just a Leica phenomenon, it applies to almost every item out there that’s being sold to us. However I would like to believe that most of us have some semblance of self-awareness and self-knowledge as to our individual limitations, so as to be able to make an informed decision regarding the suitability of a product relative to our needs/requirements and expectations. In many instances, once we’ve made our choice we become married to it, emotion and personal feelings override logic. This Forum is a “Leica Club” of sorts, with its fans, fanboys, detractors and wind-up artists, (many hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet), all however interconnected by the Leica brand in one way or another. Oh and I forgot to mention the odd troll- and not for one minute am I saying that anyone who is unhappy is therefore a troll. What do you expect to happen when someone arrives in this “Leica Club” and from the outset proceeds to trash the brand? Of course people will get their backs up. Even more so when this message is delivered in a brash, rude or offhanded way. The lines then become blurred and the discussion often descends to the level of personal insults with the inevitable blows being traded; forgetting that all we’re arguing about is a mechanical piece of equipment made of metal and glass. Having said that I’ve been here for almost 5 years and can honestly say that I’ve never witnessed an absolute intolerance to criticism of Leica gear. In fact there’s a huge willingness on the part of members to assist others with solving problems and issues and to convince them that they should stick with Leica. One can usually anticipate an impending punch-up, this is usually preceded by some asinine comments based on unrealistic expectations, and poor/unpleasant delivery of the message. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted April 11, 2012 Share #59 Posted April 11, 2012 Nothing personal of course but sounds to me that some of us are becoming overly sensitive to criticism, i don't know why. The links you're quoting here have little to do with trolling as we used to meet it in the old Forum. To be a bit provocative, i would say that i see more fanboyism that trolling in all this so far. YMMV. With respect I think you're slightly missing the point here. Neither I nor Michali (in his post I referred to) are saying that everyone who complains must be a troll (see his post no. 62), and likewise not all satisfied customers can be described as 'fanboys'. What the earlier post (no.17) hinted at was the likelihood of the same person having very recently joined the forum three-days apart using ever so slightly different user names in order to start negative threads. The very definition of internet trolling. That's all. YMMV of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 11, 2012 Share #60 Posted April 11, 2012 Forgive me, Bill, but I can't help but see the irony in your comment. You've been one of the loudest voices here about the "flawed and compromised" M8; these are often your exact choice of words. For many of us, however, we just care that the camera is able to produce wonderful pics in capable hands. The rest to us is irrelevant as it does not affect the work, and any issues can be easily resolved, for our own needs. You, as a non-user of the product, can't help but regularly voice your own view, whether that's based on a (non) purchase decision, or perhaps a lifestyle choice (film M versus digital M). There apparently is as much psychology to non-ownership as there is to ownership. Jeff Irony fully intended, Jeff and I am pleased that at least one person spotted and commented upon it. Of course there is "psychology" to non-ownership; I was bitterly disappointed with the M8 when it first came out and still to this day regard it as a brave and necessary step made by Leica into digital that, for all the reasons we all know, needed to be moved on from in product terms as soon as possible. The M9 is a different proposition and, you are right, at the time when I had the money burning a hole in my pocket I made a "lifestyle choice" and opted for an ALC MP4 and the pleasure of film, over an M9. I am genuinely happy to see so many people still using and enjoying the M8 and M8.2 - but, be honest - it was, like the M3 and the subsequent M2 a work in progress rather than the finished article. I have tried to like the M8, honestly I have. I have fondled other peoples (ooer) and borrowed a couple, one for a weekend and another for over a week, but I have never had that warm fuzzy feeling you get when something just "fits". Ironically I now use my LTM, M and R glass on a GXR, so you can hardly say that I am anti-crop factor Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.