sabears Posted March 31, 2012 Share #1 Posted March 31, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) See this : LEICA III Model (F) CHROME GERMANY ARMY ISSUE 1933 CAMERA BODY RARE CLEAN | eBay I wrote to the seller because as far as I know these cameras (the ones with the arrow engraved on the top) have nothing to do with Army. Obviously I had no reply. The auction has expired and he has resubmitted the camera without any change in the description. I know that there were some of these cameras sold even by Westlicht (one for Euro650) in the past, again they told the arrow was only in order to indicate the way the curtains go, no mentions to the Army. What's the opinion of the respectable members of this forum? There are any chance that the seller is right ? greetings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2012 Posted March 31, 2012 Hi sabears, Take a look here Misrepresented item?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
diser Posted March 31, 2012 Share #2 Posted March 31, 2012 There were some indications that arrows were engraved mostly on military cameras. Can't vouch for this information though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 1, 2012 Share #3 Posted April 1, 2012 In his collector's guide, Dennis Laney lists many different military markings, but NOT solely an arrow like this. Military markings of the 30's and WW2 include "Heer", "WH" (Wehrmacht Heer), "M" for Navy (kreigsMarine), "Luftwaffen-Eigentum," additional gov't property serial numbers, occasional "K" for ball-bearing shutters, etc. I guess in the absence of any of those other, definite military, markings, I'd be doubtful - UNLESS the serial number can be tied to a military purchase/order in some way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted April 1, 2012 Share #4 Posted April 1, 2012 That rangefinder housing looks suspicious to me, and the separate components don't seem to quite have the same age/wear. I wouldn't be surprised if the camera is an assemblage of fake and genuine parts, or is entirely fake. Also, the only military arrow markings I know are the "broad arrow", with a short shaft. Interesting that the seller did not show the rangefinder focussing roller . Furthermore, the goods are located in Canada, being sold by a Canadian seller, in a German Auction. One final point; Out of around 300 items currently being auctioned according to the seller's store (with various finish dates); I only found one which had a bid on it. I wouldn't touch this with a 40 foot pole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted April 1, 2012 Share #5 Posted April 1, 2012 That rangefinder housing looks suspicious to me, and the separate components don't seem to quite have the same age/wear. I wouldn't be surprised if the camera is an assemblage of fake and genuine parts, or is entirely fake. The superstructure definitely looks as if it has been re-chromed. The style of the number engraving is not the same as that from a similarly dated model III - it appears to be the style used on later IIIf..... Interesting that the seller did not show the rangefinder focussing roller . This is not a Russian fake so, I am sure that the roller is round... Furthermore, the goods are located in Canada, being sold by a Canadian seller, in a German Auction. The seller is genuine - located in Toronto, often running auctions offering Leica equipment. The only reason that the auction appeared as a 'German auction' is because the OP's link was from eBay.de. Here is a link to the 'real' site: eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices One final point; Out of around 300 items currently being auctioned according to the seller's store (with various finish dates); I only found one which had a bid on it. I wouldn't touch this with a 40 foot pole. It is not surprising that there are no bids. Opening bids are set so high, that nobody is willing to take the first bite. It is quite possible the the model III referred to in the opening post is not 100% genuine (but difficult to prove one way or the other) but, the seller definitely is genuine - I have followed his auctions for quite some time. There were quite a few Leica collectors in Toronto, Leitz original importer Walter A. Carveth was located there and a lot of rare Leica pieces were in the hands of Carveth employees. It is quite possible that some of the 'treasure' is finding its way on the market. Cheers, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted April 1, 2012 Author Share #6 Posted April 1, 2012 I've found this, very similar item (but the arrow seems better made) : II Mod.D black : Lot 32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted April 1, 2012 Share #7 Posted April 1, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) See this :LEICA III Model (F) CHROME GERMANY ARMY ISSUE 1933 CAMERA BODY RARE CLEAN | eBay I wrote to the seller because as far as I know these cameras (the ones with the arrow engraved on the top) have nothing to do with Army. Obviously I had no reply. The auction has expired and he has resubmitted the camera without any change in the description. I know that there were some of these cameras sold even by Westlicht (one for Euro650) in the past, again they told the arrow was only in order to indicate the way the curtains go, no mentions to the Army. What's the opinion of the respectable members of this forum? There are any chance that the seller is right ? greetings. This looks indeed doubtful, to say the least. The only known "arrows" on the top fairings with an "army" significance are the short, vertical ones engraved on the bodies used by the Royal Air Force during World War 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 1, 2012 Share #8 Posted April 1, 2012 I'm pretty sure the top plate is wrong. A case of buyer beware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted April 1, 2012 Share #9 Posted April 1, 2012 This looks indeed doubtful, to say the least. The only known "arrows" on the top fairings with an "army" significance are the short, vertical ones engraved on the bodies used by the Royal Air Force during World War 2. In fact the arrow is the ordnance symbol in UK like the 3 crown for Sweden You can find them also on weapons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted April 1, 2012 Share #10 Posted April 1, 2012 Yes, JC but it is completely different to this arrow. The ordnance property mark is a pheon with just three lines not a feathered arrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted April 2, 2012 Share #11 Posted April 2, 2012 Yes, JC but it is completely different to this arrow. The ordnance property mark is a pheon with just three lines not a feathered arrow. This is correct. The 'broad arrow' is the traditional British ordnance mark, used by all services, not only the R.A.F. I have seen a WWI Colt revolver chambered for the British .455 Webley cartridge and marked with the broad arrow. The Brits bought lots of weapons from the U.S. but took time to mark them correctly. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted April 2, 2012 Share #12 Posted April 2, 2012 It is not surprising that there are no bids. Opening bids are set so high, that nobody is willing to take the first bite. Thanks Jan; My opinion hasn't changed though. I've looked at his feedback comments, plus a fair percentage of the feedback on those who've bought from him. Sorry, but many feedbacks from the same buyers; then finding that they have multiples of feedback from different buyers/sellers is a worry. With your information that the opening bids are high, that would seem to negate the probability of re-sellers. Also, the seller's apparent sales rate is around 40 to 80 per month. This doesn't appear to me, to be in keeping with one bid on around 300 lots at auction (as mentioned before). I'm sure there is an explanation for all this: however, my alarm senses have not diminished. Kind regards, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted April 2, 2012 Share #13 Posted April 2, 2012 I have not bought anyhing from this particular seller, but I do have the store saved as a favorite. All of the listings are always top shelf quality and high dollar items, M6J's, McIntosh Audio gear, Hasselblad, misc. hoods, and accessories, just super cool stuff that is always appealing to me. I think your spidey sense is misdirected...there are plenty of scams being run on out in the middle of the bay, I'm confident that this store is totally legit. Just because he's not willing to list Mint Chome M4 for a starting price of 49 cents doesn't make him dishonest. Do you have any idea how much all of that inventory costs? I'm also sure that there are quite a few "experts" in the world of Leica who nitpick that stores listings to death and never spend a dime, filling his message box with "helpful" comments that he didn't ask for or need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 2, 2012 Share #14 Posted April 2, 2012 This is correct. The 'broad arrow' is the traditional British ordnance mark, used by all services, not only the R.A.F. I have seen a WWI Colt revolver chambered for the British .455 Webley cartridge and marked with the broad arrow. The Brits bought lots of weapons from the U.S. but took time to mark them correctly. The old man from the Kodachrome Age It's not just weapons - anything that was government property had a broad arrow mark. I have my Grandfather's service pocket watch - that is similarly marked. The Ordnance Bench Marks carved into buildings and walls etc to allow for land surveying are broad arrows - the recorded level being at the point of the arrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted April 2, 2012 Share #15 Posted April 2, 2012 In fact the arrow is the ordnance symbol in UK like the 3 crown for Sweden You can find them also on weapons. Broad arrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yes, JC but it is completely different to this arrow. The ordnance property mark is a pheon with just three lines not a feathered arrow. It was obvious for me ... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/176088-misrepresented-item/?do=findComment&comment=1971474'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted April 2, 2012 Share #16 Posted April 2, 2012 I have not bought anyhing from this particular seller, but I do have the store saved as a favorite. All of the listings are always top shelf quality and high dollar items, M6J's, McIntosh Audio gear, Hasselblad, misc. hoods, and accessories, just super cool stuff that is always appealing to me. I think your spidey sense is misdirected...there are plenty of scams being run on out in the middle of the bay, I'm confident that this store is totally legit. Just because he's not willing to list Mint Chome M4 for a starting price of 49 cents doesn't make him dishonest. Do you have any idea how much all of that inventory costs? I'm also sure that there are quite a few "experts" in the world of Leica who nitpick that stores listings to death and never spend a dime, filling his message box with "helpful" comments that he didn't ask for or need. I personally bought a lot of high quality items from this shop with great satisfaction. (only the shipping is always on the high part but only to cover the insurance for the value ...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 2, 2012 Share #17 Posted April 2, 2012 Does no one else suspect that the top plate is 'wrong' ? It looks like a Reid or Zorki part to me..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 2, 2012 Share #18 Posted April 2, 2012 It is not just you - I would not touch this one with a bargepole quite apart from the arrow issue - which is clearly a misrepresentation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted April 3, 2012 Share #19 Posted April 3, 2012 I personally bought a lot of high quality items from this shop with great satisfaction.(only the shipping is always on the high part but only to cover the insurance for the value ...) O.K., in regard to the genuineness of the seller; I bow to the voices of experience . However, I still have great concerns regarding the genuineness of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted April 3, 2012 Share #20 Posted April 3, 2012 O.K., in regard to the genuineness of the seller; I bow to the voices of experience . However, I still have great concerns regarding the genuineness of the camera. Personally I have no interest for this kind of camera, but the case of the arrow is intriguing for every leica "afficionado" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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