Erwin Puts new thoughts on the M8

[Canfred]

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I just read his new info on the M8 , not sure what to make of this.

Just when I thought perhaps its time to give the camera a good try

I read this. I am not able to comment since I have not used one.

I must say the many photos posted here are impressive , so which of his comments are genuine in your opinion. Can anyone here clear this please. Here is the link http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c032.html

Thank you. Manfred

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[stunsworth]

I don't know which are genuine and which aren't, but his assertion that TV, cinema, still photography and painting (!!!) are all going to merge in the same melting pot is quite frankly bizzare IMHO.

[Shootist]

I just read his new info on the M8 , not sure what to make of this.

Just when I thought perhaps its time to give the camera a good try

I read this. I am not able to comment since I have not used one.

I must say the many photos posted here are impressive , so which of his comments are genuine in your opinion. Can anyone here clear this please. Here is the link http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c032.html

Thank you. Manfred

That's not really a new review or his final thoughts on the M8. That article goes from M8 to film and then on to whatever.

His comments are his comment as he see it, what "IT" is you deside.

I am not a rich man, I do not do photography for a living ( in fact I make nothing from taking picture), but I have purchased a M8 and increased my Leica lens count. I do own other Leica cameras.

If you read all the review they say the same thing, there are flaws in the M8. Just like every other Leica ever made and every other camera ever made film or digital.

Just like the old saying "Sh*t or get off the pot".

[Photoskeptic]

"The camera is a most pleasurable instrument to use and delivers excellent results."

 

He could have stopped right there and you would know all that is necessary.

[james_h]

Ask any person if they would return their M8 given the 'problems' and this will be a short thread.

 

Philosophy is probalbly best left to the Greeks & Erwin.

 

Sorry forgot to mention Imants !

 

regards

Jim

[pascal_meheut]

"No one needs camera that generates a file with a 22 Mb pixel size"

 

Yes, sure... This guy should really retire.

[flavio]

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I think the Puts' article deserve a little bit deeper reflection. Photography is changing, digital is adding something (for instance going towards a mix between photography and, actually in my point of view, painting) and something may be lost. It is changing.

Some more notes from Erwing deserve attention, in my opinion as the MB or the overall economic subjects.

This does not mean he is right (though he might be) but is adding good points, useful to investigate for all of us.

 

Greetings.

[Guest sirvine]

I agree, Flavio. I think his comments about passion being the product are dead on. Leica has to really work hard to keep the passion alive, and I believe Mr. Puts is suggesting that the M8 is an improvement over the DMR in this respect. He is also right to leave the final judgment out, since there are only two data points in the history of Leica's serious digital endeavor.

[Riley]

his idea that "Now we have only one domain, the digital image" does carry some weight

if you thought about it more, you would see that movies are digitised

that more than the broad scope of photography is digital

that for many people, even the famous art works in books, where probably imaged with digital photography. Its simply everywhere

 

and I think he makes an interesting analogy, between the automobile business and that of the camera business

we have used this analogy in discussion here for ourselves

but he neglects that a car is an evocative piece of machinery to many

indeed Leica sales are to an extent fuelled by that persuasion

why else would the D3 cost so much more than L1

 

his reasoning suggests, that manufacturers who fail to innovate will fall

and this I wholeheartedly agree with

what I wrestle with is the analogy being brought to the camera market

not that it isnt appropriate, I think this is so, but is he suggesting the M isnt an innovation ?

 

his view, as i read it, is that quality is becoming more scarce

and he makes the link between quality devices in the form of cars and cameras

he neglects the emotional and boutique context

for it is my view, that Porsche will always be around

because there will always be someone ready to hand over fascinating amounts of money to have it sit in the driveway

 

But further to this, there is the buyer who, in his/her opinion, the machine is simply a tool

a tool that accelerates like blazes, and takes any corner so hard your teeth fall out

you could surely say the same about imagery, not that your teeth will fall out

 

His view of the marketing approach, and the costs to life in the form of diversity and quality are worth sparing a thought for.

[jaapv]

The article is fine, as far as it goes, but it misses a number of points. Erwin presumes that the quality of digital photography is measured against the scale of halide photography. It is not. That idea is as flawed as the thoughts in the end of the nineteenth , beginning twentieth century that photography should be "just like painting" Breitner is a good example, producing excellent, but very limited paintings and photographs. Undoubtely future art history will name a few similar examples regarding halide and electronic photography. Secondly, and is in the same vein, het bemoans the passing of the DMR. That was / is a transitional instrument, more than excellent, but on the divide of two ages. The future is unimaginably different and electronic imagining will find its own way, expression and quality standards, based on, but totally seperate from traditional photographic values.

Once again the car industry is held up as an example. Not correct in my opinion. A far better example would be the audio industry with MP3players (cellphone camera's), compact systems (P&S) consumer midi and hifi sets (DSLR's) and high end products. There are plenty of examples there of very sucessful small companies in countries like the UK and Germany not competing against, but complementing Asiatic giants. I think with this marriage of tradition, quality and state-of-the-art technology, there is a bright future for Leica with the M series as the only possible flagship.

What all this has to do with a review of the M8? Not much, about the same as Mr. Puts' article.

There the best resource is this forum, with all the weak points, strengths and highlights of the camera elaborated at length. The images speak for themselves.

[cbretteville]

What Erwin is really good at is analysis of optical systems and comparing one to the other. His lens compendium, the freebe book from Leica and his contributions to the 7th edition of the Leica pocket book are examples of first rate works. As long as he can stick to the scientifics he's on safe ground - where he should stay.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What Erwin is really good at is analysis of optical systems and comparing one to the other. His lens compendium, the freebe book from Leica and his contributions to the 7th edition of the Leica pocket book are examples of first rate works. As long as he can stick to the scientifics he's on safe ground - where he should stay.

 

 

Carl you took the words right out of my mouth

[stunsworth]

I agree with Carl. Erwin takes a lot of highly undeserved criticism on the internet condidering the amount of information he's made available - much of it FOC. But I do feel he's at his best with lenses rather than bodies or digital. If I remember correctly the AE on the Konica RF was criticised because it detached the photographer from the camera, where as with the M7 it enabled the photographer to concentrate on the image. That's from memory, and I'm paraphrasing, but I seem to remember that was the drift of the two reviews.

 

People have said that he's not a great photographer, but that isn't necessary for the type of testing he's best at. I'm more than happy to concentrate on the hardware reviews rather than the more philosophical pieces.

 

The lens compendium is a fascinating book, and more to the point I _trust_ his reviews.

[AlanG]

I think what he really is doing is just throwing out a lot of concepts for speculation. There really is no analysis here to support any conclusions. For all of you M8 users, why should you care? You know by now if you are happy with your camera for your needs.

 

As for speculation about the merging of video and stills. I think that is happening. I never shot a video before I had a p&s digital camera. But once I had one, I found various situations that were better recorded on video than still.

 

Less than a month ago, I was riding a tram with fellow skiers in the Dolomites. A group of Italian men broke out in song. (These gentlemen obviously were used to doing this as they had a rehearsed harmony.) So I pulled out my little p&s and recorded a very nice video with sound. There is no way that still pictures would have captured this experience. Even though I am used to technology, I still think it is a little amazing that this tiny inexpensive camera was capable of shooting hi quality stabilized movies with good sound in that situation. It is one of my best memories of that trip. And because of the video, I can share it with others.

[rosuna]

I think the Puts' article deserve a little bit deeper reflection.

 

I agree.

 

However, Leica is doing great products. The DMR and the M8 are top-end products. The R10 Digital will be fantastic. They are learning and improving. I am optimist about Leica.

[Lode]

Writing such a philosophical text as Erwin does can only succeed if you have a subject, a strong base and a logical construction.

I miss all that in Erwins text. He's mixing up a number of lines of reasoning.

Maybe I don't understand his text. I imagine you read it better after a bottle of good wine. I'm going to try it tonight.

Cheers,

Lode

[AaronJ]

I thought there was a limit on the number of times the camera industry can be compared to the automotive industry. Didn't Puts get the memo?

[scott kirkpatrick]

He's been musing along these lines for at least a year or so. One reference point in his musings is the digital image/video convergence, which is addressed in a very practical way by Dirk Halstead, who also publishes the Digital Journalist monthly webzine (well worth checking regularly). Halstead is retired from a long career as a still photojournalist, has shot from Vietnam to the White House, holds the record for the most Time Magazine covers, and has a recent retrospective book and touring exhibit to remind us of it.

 

He has a natural interest in seeing that there remains an opportunity for younger generations to make a living in some sort of image-based journalism, reaching the widest possible audience. In Halstead's view, this requires what he calls a Platypus, a person equally at home with digital still and digital video means of telling a story. He has run summer schools for several years to train Platypi (Platypuses?) and they sound like an extremely valuable experience. Under continuing cost pressure, I would certainly expect that journalism would reward the Platypi, and that as a result their tools would be under pressure to get more similar and interoperable. My children, when handed a new P&S don't ask where the manual controls are, or how high the ISO can go. They want to know where the video setting is, and they then make quite natural tradeoffs between snapshots and videos.

 

So I think Puts is right, although he is making a bigger deal than it may warrant. The next generation will simply see tv, movies, advertisements, art on the wall, and music videos as variants of the same thing, and choose the tools they need.

 

scott

[Guest sirvine]

It's interesting to think about the dynamics of all kinds of media convergence, so I don't begrudge Puts his perspective. For myself, I grew up in the middle of the still/video convergence. I was shooting on my Leica IIIg or EOS Elan IIe at the same time as I was cutting video on Toaster, Avid and FCP. You need only look at the shutter rate on the newest EOS 1 series or the resolution and image quality on the high-end HD video cameras to see where convergence is taking us. And you've been able to attach EOS system lenses to videocameras for at least a decade now.

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Hallo,

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