Which wide-angle lens between 15-21-28?

[paolodeluca]

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Hi all,

 

first thread here and I was looking for suggestions on a wide-angle lens for my M8.

I won't use it much except for landscape and some street photography so I am not looking for an expensive lens.

 

My budget would be alright for the following lenses but I am very undecided:

 

Voigtlander 28mm Ultron f2

Voigtlander 15mm (VM or with adaptor, not sure if there is any difference between the two)

Voigtlander 21mm f4

 

My concerns:

 

28mm -> Not wide enough on the M8?

21mm -> I've heard bad things especially if I decide to upgrade to FF (M9) - red corners etc..

15mm -> Will need a 21mm Viewfinder and I don't like the idea of having to use an external viewfinder to frame, also I have a thumbs up without the hot shue so I will have to remove it to use the viewfinder (annoying)

 

Right now I am more inclined for the 28mm... but considering I am currently using a Zeiss 50mm Sonnar I am not sure 28mm is the best choice...

 

I would really like to hear from you, which lens would you go for and why?

 

Thanks

Paolo

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[fWord]

Tough question to answer actually, because it really depends on your style of 'street' photography, and 'landscape' photography can be done with almost any lens of any focal length. It also depends on what you define as being 'wide enough'. Furthermore, the three kinds of focal lengths you mention are going to have lenses that vary wildly in maximum aperture. Do you need something with f/2 or larger or will you be shooting at f/4 and smaller?

 

28mm will yield FOV of approximately 38mm on the M8. For me this would be the perfect focal length on the M8 for most travel photography but it's certainly only 'semi-wide'. If you were to consider a 28mm lens for your M8, I'd be inclined to go for the older Ultron 28/1.9 instead with a Leica screw to M mount adapter. I'm not sure that the f/2 version is better than the f/1.9. Haven't seen any comparison photos between the two, even if the f/2 is claimed to be better. However I've read that the f/2 may have some focus shift issues. Also, Erwin Puts, who writes extensively about Leica lenses, has written about the f/1.9 in favourable light in comparison to the Summicron f/2, considering that it is a fraction of the price. I also like 28mm because you can use it without an external viewfinder. That's the whole philosophy behind the Leica M, IMO...the use of an unobstrusive camera for natural photos. An external viewfinder would be a hindrance unless you're well practiced.

 

Have you considered the 24mm focal length (or thereabouts)? What about lenses like the Voigtlander 25/4 Snapshot Skopar (scale focus) or the newer coupled Voigtlander 25/4 Color Skopar? The 24mm focal length is the widest you can use on the M8 without an external viewfinder. But you need to check if you personally are able to see the 24mm framelines without too much trouble. I wear spectacles and have trouble with the 24mm framelines. 28mm is hence the widest I can comfortably use on the M8 without an external VF.

 

Personally, there's nothing wrong with going for a 28mm when you already have a 50mm. I think it's a natural choice. At the moment I have a 28mm and 90mm lens, and the 50mm will be my next acquisition (although I'm trying very hard not to buy any more). As an aside, I think that the 28/90 combination on an M8 is a nice one because both framelines show in the VF at the same time. When using either lens on the M8, I can immediately see, at a glance, what FOV the other lens in my bag would give.

 

If you seriously wanted a nice wide setup for landscapes, I'd be considering a full frame DSLR (like a Nikon or Canon) with the superb Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 (with a Nikon G-EOS adapter if you're using a Canon). Yes, it's a bit of money to drop for a wide setup and you mentioned not using it that often. However, if you can loan such a setup, try it for a few days. Who knows, you might like it. And if you buy that, you won't be left wanting for better. Going wide, in its very nature, requires very precise framing, and a 100% viewfinder (in some models) in a DSLR lets you compose to the very corners of the frame regardless of focal length and focusing distance. I think this is one of the cases where a DSLR has the edge. The Nikon lens also has a max aperture of f/2.8 and is tack sharp from wide open, almost to the very extreme corners, and you can focus down to 0.3 meters. There's genuine scope for selective focus and interesting perspectives at this level.

[stefano60]

hello,

 

i have two of the 3 voigtlander lenses you are considering:

- the 15 (get the M mount if you go for this one, the SM does not focus with the rangefinder). it is a great lens, which i really do not use that much though. even if it is not a real 'super wide' when cropped by the M8 sensor, it is still a little too wide for the way i shoot (my other lenses are 28-40-50-75).

- got the 28 ultron when i sold the X1, i wanted to get a similar FOV (around 35), and i got to really like it. it is great for street, buildings, landscapes.... very nice indeed, i think you would be very pleased with it

[paolodeluca]

Hi Guys,

 

thank you so much for the replies, I am more and more convinced to go for the 28mm Ultron, that would probably be the easiest solution considering I don't probably need the wideness of the 15mm and I am not looking forward to an external viewfinder.

 

The only doubt now is: 28mm or 25mm, as I understand I wouldn't have any issue (in terms of external vf) with any of them but of course the 28mm goes down to 2.0.

[paolodeluca]

Tough question to answer actually, because it really depends on your style of 'street' photography, and 'landscape' photography can be done with almost any lens of any focal length. It also depends on what you define as being 'wide enough'. Furthermore, the three kinds of focal lengths you mention are going to have lenses that vary wildly in maximum aperture. Do you need something with f/2 or larger or will you be shooting at f/4 and smaller?

 

28mm will yield FOV of approximately 38mm on the M8. For me this would be the perfect focal length on the M8 for most travel photography but it's certainly only 'semi-wide'. If you were to consider a 28mm lens for your M8, I'd be inclined to go for the older Ultron 28/1.9 instead with a Leica screw to M mount adapter. I'm not sure that the f/2 version is better than the f/1.9. Haven't seen any comparison photos between the two, even if the f/2 is claimed to be better. However I've read that the f/2 may have some focus shift issues. Also, Erwin Puts, who writes extensively about Leica lenses, has written about the f/1.9 in favourable light in comparison to the Summicron f/2, considering that it is a fraction of the price. I also like 28mm because you can use it without an external viewfinder. That's the whole philosophy behind the Leica M, IMO...the use of an unobstrusive camera for natural photos. An external viewfinder would be a hindrance unless you're well practiced.

 

Have you considered the 24mm focal length (or thereabouts)? What about lenses like the Voigtlander 25/4 Snapshot Skopar (scale focus) or the newer coupled Voigtlander 25/4 Color Skopar? The 24mm focal length is the widest you can use on the M8 without an external viewfinder. But you need to check if you personally are able to see the 24mm framelines without too much trouble. I wear spectacles and have trouble with the 24mm framelines. 28mm is hence the widest I can comfortably use on the M8 without an external VF.

 

Personally, there's nothing wrong with going for a 28mm when you already have a 50mm. I think it's a natural choice. At the moment I have a 28mm and 90mm lens, and the 50mm will be my next acquisition (although I'm trying very hard not to buy any more). As an aside, I think that the 28/90 combination on an M8 is a nice one because both framelines show in the VF at the same time. When using either lens on the M8, I can immediately see, at a glance, what FOV the other lens in my bag would give.

 

If you seriously wanted a nice wide setup for landscapes, I'd be considering a full frame DSLR (like a Nikon or Canon) with the superb Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 (with a Nikon G-EOS adapter if you're using a Canon). Yes, it's a bit of money to drop for a wide setup and you mentioned not using it that often. However, if you can loan such a setup, try it for a few days. Who knows, you might like it. And if you buy that, you won't be left wanting for better. Going wide, in its very nature, requires very precise framing, and a 100% viewfinder (in some models) in a DSLR lets you compose to the very corners of the frame regardless of focal length and focusing distance. I think this is one of the cases where a DSLR has the edge. The Nikon lens also has a max aperture of f/2.8 and is tack sharp from wide open, almost to the very extreme corners, and you can focus down to 0.3 meters. There's genuine scope for selective focus and interesting perspectives at this level.

 

I think a 25 or 28 plus my 50mm will give me enough flexibility, agree with your dslr point but I wouldn't change my rangefinder with a dslr, I mainly do street photo, landscape would only be a once in a while (on holiday) thing... hence the low budget allocated to the wide lens

[farnz]

The 21/2.8 Kobalux is worth considering too (also available under the brand names Avenon and Pasoptic). The build quality is excellent, optical performance is very similar to the 21/2.8 Elmarit pre-asph, and it's excellent value for money although can be difficult to find.

 

I agree with fword that you should consider the CV 28/1.9 rather than the 28/2. The f/1.9 has formed an excellent reputation over many years and although it's a little larger than its f/2 sister it doesn't suffer from the f/2's alleged focus shift.

 

Pete.

[paolodeluca]

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An update on this... an some additional doubts...

 

I've found a 15mm (not VM) plus 21mm viewfinder at a great price but I don't like the idea of having an external viewfinder plus having to guess the focus...

 

Also found a 25mm VM f4... I am guessing I won't be needing the external viewfinder for this one on the M8 but:

 

1. Will I need one if I upgrade to an M9?

2. How should I setup the frame lines on the M8, should become a 32.5mm?

3. How should I code the lens and also is coding the lens enough to make the appropriate frame lines to show up?

 

Thank you all

[StephenPatterson]

Paolo, I strongly suggest you spend some time searching the forum to gain additional knowledge, while also coming here to ask questions. The combination should help you quickly answer most of your questions. Search out threads on lenses, external viewfinders, etc. to see how others have ventured down your same path.

 

Coding lenses is not enough, as the Leica M8 and M9 also look at the frame lines brought up by the lens cam. If the "proper" frame line is not brought up the code will not be recognized by the camera. This has been a problem in the past with some non-Leica M mount lenses.

 

I started on the M8 with a 35mm lens, and I strongly suggest you do the same. For me it was a Zeiss, but CV are also excellent. When you move to an M9 (see I said "when" and not "if") you will have a very useful lens. Your view of the world may vary, but it's hard to go wrong with the 35mm and 50mm focal lengths. For wide angle I strongly suggest the 21mm focal length, as it will give you a 28mm FOV on the M8 and also be a very useful lens on the M9. The Zeiss version 21/2.8 is stunning.

 

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask questions. We're glad you're here and contributing to the forum!!!

[farnz]

... If the "proper" frame line is not brought up the code will not be recognized by the camera. ...

Good point, Steven.

 

Which frame lines does the M8 expects to see with a 21mm LTM lens i.e. is a 28/90 LTM-M adaptor the right one? (Anyone with a Leica 21mm M-mount lens can answer this by checking what frame lines their lens brings up.)

 

Pete.

[paolodeluca]

It's becoming clearer that I should go for the 21mm then...

 

I am currently using a 50mm Zeiss f1.5 on my M8 and I find it perfect for my style of street photography. I have to admit that I am more comfortable at the extremes, either very wide or quite long, hence the reason for considering the 15mm.

 

Stephen, I wish I could go for the Zeiss but definitely out of my budget for a wide lens right now.

 

I will have to find a 21mm CV f4, do you guys reckon there is going to be that much difference between the 21 and the 25 CV both f4? I am asking this just because I could get the 25mm on Saturday (ideally I would like to take it on holiday with me next week) while apparently the 21mm is much more hard to find.

 

Also 25mm is the exact half of my current 50mm I like how it sounds!

 

Pete, if I got it right then I could code the 25mm (with the 8bit coding) as a Elmar-M 24mm f3.8 to get the 24/35 frames.

 

If this is correct then the 32.5 (25 on M8) vs 35 frame lines that will show up would not be that accurate anyway (should be around 5 degrees difference if the nikon lens simulator is correct, and that should be quite a lot).

 

Thanks again for the replies!

[StephenPatterson]

Paolo, I think there are problems with the CV 21/4 on the M8 and M9. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the lens extends too far into the camera body. Can anybody confirm this?

 

It's too bad that you cannot stretch the budget for a Zeiss 21/2.8 Biogon. What a lens!!! For the money it can't be beat, however the Leica is smaller, has slightly better contrast, and is slightly sharper wide open (all of these statements are opinion and based upon nothing except my often flawed, personal beliefs).

 

As for frame lines my 21/3.4 brings up the 28/90 frame lines in the viewfinder of my M9.

 

Remember that with the M8 the frame lines are "cropped" just like the sensor, so the 35mm framelines are for a 35mm lens with the 1.3X crop taken into consideration. This always confuses people (like me).

[garysamson]

Paolo, I think there are problems with the CV 21/4 on the M8 and M9. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the lens extends too far into the camera body. Can anybody confirm this?

 

It's too bad that you cannot stretch the budget for a Zeiss 21/2.8 Biogon. What a lens!!! For the money it can't be beat, however the Leica is smaller, has slightly better contrast, and is slightly sharper wide open (all of these statements are opinion and based upon nothing except my often flawed, personal beliefs).

 

As for frame lines my 21/3.4 brings up the 28/90 frame lines in the viewfinder of my M9.

 

Remember that with the M8 the frame lines are "cropped" just like the sensor, so the 35mm framelines are for a 35mm lens with the 1.3X crop taken into consideration. This always confuses people (like me).

 

The Voigtlander 21/4 Skopar will work perfectly with the M8 if you use the CornerFix software to correct the vignetting and cyan shift. This lens is a really fine performer with exceptional resolution out to the corners. You will need the 28mm Voigtlander view finder for accurate composition. See Reid Reviews for more info about this lens.

[Erik Gunst Lund]

The Voigtlander 21/4 Skopar will work perfectly with the M8 if you use the CornerFix software to correct the vignetting and cyan shift. This lens is a really fine performer with exceptional resolution out to the corners. You will need the 28mm Voigtlander view finder for accurate composition. See Reid Reviews for more info about this lens.

 

Or instead you could just code it and use a UV/IR filter, then the raw files are perfect as is. No color issues and no vignetting issues...

I have the old LTM version and its really quite skarp into the corners not fra from the quality of the 28 ASPH Elmarit actually, I see no need for an upgrade any time soon.