jc_braconi Posted January 7, 2012 Share #41 Posted January 7, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Btw, my item (bought at Westlicht - 3500 Euros) was accompanied by an original letter of Leica Camera to the previous owner (name obliterated in the attached copy), dated 1997 which details the number of items built. the one that was for sale some time ago and I sent you picts is a prototyp with s/n 00000x You know the seller and dont want to name him in here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 7, 2012 Posted January 7, 2012 Hi jc_braconi, Take a look here Leitz 800mm f6.3 Telyt-S ... arrived today. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
01af Posted January 7, 2012 Share #42 Posted January 7, 2012 Huh? The letter from Leica Information Service is rather confusing (or confused?). According to A. von Gyimes, 2500891 - 2500651 = 109? If the numbering started at 2500651 and ended with 2500891 and was strictly consecutive then 241 pieces were produced, not 109 (plus prototypes). So this letter brings more questions than answers. However, I wouldn't expect anything else from Leica Information Service anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted January 7, 2012 Share #43 Posted January 7, 2012 in the Documentary Film "Olympic Games Munich 72" post #6 you can see a big "Leitz 800mm" label..... was this special promotion for the Olympic Games? (to see it in Televison) or a Prototype version... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! regards, Jan ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/169877-leitz-800mm-f63-telyt-s-arrived-today/?do=findComment&comment=1891482'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 7, 2012 Share #44 Posted January 7, 2012 Huh? The letter from Leica Information Service is rather confusing (or confused?). According to A. von Gyimes, 2500891 - 2500651 = 109? If the numbering started at 2500651 and ended with 2500891 and was strictly consecutive then 241 pieces were produced, not 109 (plus prototypes). So this letter brings more questions than answers. However, I wouldn't expect anything else from Leica Information Service anyway A possible (?) explanation could be that 109 is the number of Leica R models, the rest went to Visoflex versions and to the mystery Minolta version : but 132 seems high... where are the Minoltas ? Time ago, I saw it quoted in a "Minolta user forum" ... but of course is difficult to access Japanese sites... Visoflex versions were surely few...and, btw, the Viso mount was also available as a separate component (the focusing unit... time ago I saw a Telyt-S for sale equipped with both mounts); another explanation could be that they provided the lens unit only, properly numbered, on special order for other manufacturers (Novoflex ?) , maybe for special purposes : in their brochures, they declared that the lens could be useful for "surveillance"... I think also that such a lens could stand well on some astronomy gear... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 7, 2012 Share #45 Posted January 7, 2012 the one that was for sale some time ago and I sent you picts is a prototyp with s/n 00000x You know the seller and dont want to name him in here Aha... which explains the price asked for.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted January 7, 2012 Share #46 Posted January 7, 2012 109 for sell and the rest for "secret service" and "military"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 7, 2012 Share #47 Posted January 7, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) About price when it was available... Marco Cavina, in his excellent review, writes that in 1992 the Italian distributor still listed it... at an astronomical price of 40MLira (around 20KEuro) VAT included... about 9x the price of M6 in the same list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telewatt Posted January 7, 2012 Share #48 Posted January 7, 2012 in the Minolta Lens Chronology it is listed "February 1974".... http://thesybersite.com/minolta/historical/Minolta_Lens_Chronology.htm regards, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted January 8, 2012 Share #49 Posted January 8, 2012 $9000 appears to be on the low side. Yes, I agree that is on the low side. 3% is a standard, single digit, off the cuff inflation number for LONG TERM in the US. A standard number people throw out there (and I admit to not checking it before posting, sorry). I just threw that out there. If I do some quick web research, the standard consumer index/inflation number over the last century in the US is 3.24%. However, one must account for the record inflation rate in the 1970s in the US. Also, I just threw out "35 years" when it is actually 37 years and this is extremely important since the mid 1970s included very high inflation. A careful look at the consumer price index from 1975 to late 2011 (I didn't find numbers which went past october), would indicate that the factor is really 4.34 which corresponds to an average annual inflation rate of slightly over 4%. Again, I emphasize that the inflation in the US was the highest rate in 100 years during mid-1970 so it is critical to get the exact dates. I just threw out an estimate - sorry for that. So, a better estimate of the $4296 price in 1975 us that this corresponds to real dollars now of $18,644. Some words of caution: 1) I am ONLY calculating the dollar value changes over 37 years and NOT including any other factors. 2) Changes in the exchange rates and different inflation rates in Germany or GB are not part of this calculation. 3) The market value and demand for the product are not included and are not figured into this calculation. BTW, I find it interesting when looking at the price lists in the US in the mid-1070s that virtually all the prices went up on products in the price lists less than 1/2 year apart but the 800mm lens did NOT change. That tell me that it was not a fast selling item and Leica US was trying to move the stock on hand (my conclusion, not based on any other info). RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 8, 2012 Share #50 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello O1af, I think the Letter from Leitz says the lens #....891 sold on 15 Jun 94 is 1 of 109 sold from an alloted # series from #....651 thru #...1000. It further goes on to say #....891 is the last #'d 800mm lens to be sold in this series. I did not see anything that said all of the #'s in that 241 # group were used for some form of an 11921. What I read said all of the 109 sold fell within that range of numbers. It further said the 8 or 10 prototypes were prefixed w/ "0000". A common Leitz practice @ the time. Total max 119 btw. Leitz has historically allocated #'s & then used them for various other purposes for whatever reason. Sometimes their other uses become known, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they allocate #'s & apparently never use them even if these #'s are on occasion parsed & then parsed again. Curious. There certainly are/were 1001 other places & uses for this lens. Even more uses for empty spaces. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share #51 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello dunk, Enjoy your new lens. I didn't mean to leave you out of things. As to my questions above: It would be interesting to find out the parameters the Telyt-S was designed for. btw: By medium distances for an 800mm lens I was thinking around 30 to 100 meters. .... Best Regards, Michael I had not noticed being 'left out' ... and the more questions asked and answered about the lens, the better for everyone. My lens will not be used until the VIPER bag arrives - provided it fits. I am wondering if the lens is a viable proposition for use with a 2x or 1.4x convertor? I have a 2x (not the APO) so might give it a try as an experiment ... maybe with two tripods. Best wishes dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted January 8, 2012 Share #52 Posted January 8, 2012 I think the letter from Leitz says ... What the letter actually says is this: Originally there was a serial number range from 2500651 to 2501000 reserved. The last lens sold was number 2500891 in June, 1994. So the number of lenses sold was 109. Additionally, there were 8 - 10 prototype lenses produced which got serial numbers outside the above-mentioned range. Well—and that's nonsense. Even if statement #3 was correct, its derivation from statements #1 and #2 is wrong. That's why this letter brings up more questions than answers. Is the alleged highest assigned serial number 2500891 correct? Have serial numbers been assigned in a strictly consecutive way? Where does the alleged number 109 of lenses sold (excluding prototypes) come from, as it cannot be deduced from the serial numbers? When 109 is the number of lenses sold rather than produced then maybe there are lenses (besides the prototypes) that have been produced but never sold? If so, how many, and why, and what's their whereabouts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 8, 2012 Share #53 Posted January 8, 2012 According to Erwin Puts there were 400 serial numbers assigned to the lens with considerably less lenses built. That tallies more or less to 350 plus prototypes. This letter is more than likely correct. I'm sure Leica adhered to their usual practice of assigning serial numbers randomly from a batch. Attila von Gyimes was a highly knowledgeable senior Leica employee ( his wife worked at Leica as well) who retired a few years ago, much to my regret. He would have had access to the production records. But I agree the word "also" is rather confusing. I tend to regard it as an unintentional embellishment which should be disregarded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 8, 2012 Share #54 Posted January 8, 2012 Anyway, being a lens that (irrationally... ) I dreamt of for longtime, I have a >10 years record of the items appeared for sale or on artcles, photos etc... : 12 items form 2.500.699 to 2.500.874... all in Leica mounts (plus the 00000x quoted by JC). A wIldlight photographer from Far East has also used it with the 2x module for the APO Telyt R... with good results, it seems (adapted to a Canon DSLR). It was also quoted into an Italian astrophotography forum, within a heated discussion about mirror lenses vs. refractives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 8, 2012 Share #55 Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry to enter again (this can be the thread with my highest %... ), but I found in my archives a 20x30 print almost identical to the one linked by K-H in post #21... it was taken in 1994 with Telyt 560 f 5,6 (Leica M2 , Kodacolor 100, lens surely stopped down to 8 or 11); the print is a crop (natively, a 30x40) , the light conditions not dissimilar (dolomites are always at their best in late sunrays) : the difference in quality is very significant in favor of the 800 : though cropped, the 560 shows the typical uneveness of definition in the field... as always with the 400/560s, there is good sharpness only in a circle of roughly 3/4 of the short side of the neg: in this sense , the 800, be it the 3rd lens or the famous special glass, is all another matter; ok, also the picture taken with it is a "center crop" (M8) but is a sensible step-up in any sense when I look at the prints... anyway, this makes me curios to test it with full frame: an occasion to buy a 35mm film (which I haven't done by 2 years), or to arrange a meeting with some M9-owner (maybe in Dolomites, if someone plans a ski week... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 8, 2012 Share #56 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello Luigi, Enjoy the Dolomites. Don't forget some pictures between 30 & 100 meters as well as far away & please use 8, 11, 16 & 22 along w/ whatever else you were going to try. The (relatively) clear Mountain air in the Winter will be a good test of how well this lens performs. Lots of tripods, etc. Hello dunk, Somewhere packed in a box somewhere from when I used to have a life is a Leitz catalog in which Leitz suggests using their then current 2X converter (pre APO) w/ the 800/6.3 for "photographs of the Moon". I routinely use my Minolta 300S w/ my 135 Tele-Elmar between 1 : 2 & 1 : 1 on a bellows & find it works just fine. Equally sharp @ 1 : 2 w/ or w/o the converter. Sharper @ 1 : 1 w/ the converter then it is w/ the lens alone. Beyond 2 sturdy tripods w/ large strong heads, hood, cable release, etc, I think you will need to wait a significant time (minutes) after setting up all of this, raising & locking mirror, etc, before you gently release the shutter. Don't forget to consider the wind both on your subject(s) & on the camera/lens/tripod assembly. The big breakthru conceptually in the career of Gustave Eiffel came about when he realized a significant portion of the problems he faced while building long/high bridges were related to the wind. I would think that might also be the case w/ things being photographed as well as things on tripods. Best Regards Both, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 8, 2012 Share #57 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello Luigi, Enjoy the Dolomites. Don't forget some pictures between 30 & 100 meters as well as far away & please use 8, 11, 16 & 22 along w/ whatever else you were going to try. The (relatively) clear Mountain air in the Winter will be a good test of how well this lens performs. Lots of tripods, etc. Hello dunk, Somewhere packed in a box somewhere from when I used to have a life is a Leitz catalog in which Leitz suggests using their then current 2X converter (pre APO) w/ the 800/6.3 for "photographs of the Moon". I routinely use my Minolta 300S w/ my 135 Tele-Elmar between 1 : 2 & 1 : 1 on a bellows & find it works just fine. Equally sharp @ 1 : 2 w/ or w/o the converter. Sharper @ 1 : 1 w/ the converter then it is w/ the lens alone. Beyond 2 sturdy tripods w/ large strong heads, hood, cable release, etc, I think you will need to wait a significant time (minutes) after setting up all of this, raising & locking mirror, etc, before you gently release the shutter. Don't forget to consider the wind both on your subject(s) & on the camera/lens/tripod assembly. The big breakthru conceptually in the career of Gustave Eiffel came about when he realized a significant portion of the problems he faced while building long/high bridges were related to the wind. I would think that might also be the case w/ things being photographed as well as things on tripods. Best Regards Both, Michael Thanks, Michael... is indeed a long operation to shoot just some pic with this monster... at the moment I have 1 tripod only, and I understood why they warmly adviced to use two...: flipping up the Viso's mirror was mandatory, and I even used the selftimer function together with the cable release... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 8, 2012 Share #58 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello Again Luigi, Have you tried the combination of the selftimer & cable release @ a relatively short distance w/ a static target to see if & @ which shutter speed(s) it is/is not superior to the cable release alone? Also the selftimer alone w/o the cable release? There are, after all, 3 possibilities. It would be interesting to know which is best under what circumstance. Do you have something relatively solid you can bring along to put under the front of the lens? I think @ 16 or more times magnification over a 50mm lens any movement should be suppressed as much as possible. Wish I was going w/ you. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 9, 2012 Share #59 Posted January 9, 2012 Hello Again Luigi, Have you tried the combination of the selftimer & cable release @ a relatively short distance w/ a static target to see if & @ which shutter speed(s) it is/is not superior to the cable release alone? Also the selftimer alone w/o the cable release? There are, after all, 3 possibilities. It would be interesting to know which is best under what circumstance. Do you have something relatively solid you can bring along to put under the front of the lens? I think @ 16 or more times magnification over a 50mm lens any movement should be suppressed as much as possible. Wish I was going w/ you. Best Regards, Michael Well, as a "second tripod" I tried to use a small cheap "flip-out" tripod which I have had for years (and it's unuseful by itself, in practice) : problem is that it is SHORT so I succeded to obtain a decent stabilization with the lens+camera set at no more than 30-40 cm (not easy to focus, even with the vertical Viso finder); I think that a good solution can be an extensible monopod to put under the front element, which has a proper receptacle for this(and lot of years ago I had a monopod... but don't find it anymore...). I tried to press the shutter button directly by hand, with self-timer... but don't feel comfortable... the hand operation tends to induce small oscillations which my tripod set seemed not to dampen quickly... I tried also cable release without selftimer and noticed no differences with the supersafe cable+selftimer... but was at infinity (various times, but no slower than 1/180). Surely in a "static" situation cable + selftimer (and mirror up) is the best... using this lens in dynamic contexts is surely a delicate task, and moreover I go through Visoflex.... I think I'll never try... (even if it comes to my mind a no bad location, next to my house, good to spot Mille Miglia cars from far & up... I'll think of...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted January 9, 2012 Share #60 Posted January 9, 2012 I think that a good solution can be an extensible monopod to put under the front element, which has a proper receptacle for this(and lot of years ago I had a monopod... but don't find it anymore...).) an other way ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/169877-leitz-800mm-f63-telyt-s-arrived-today/?do=findComment&comment=1893460'>More sharing options...
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