Advice on buying second hand from this site's classifieds

[Brighton1975]

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I'm currently sending myself insane by weighing up the pros and cons of buying either an M8, M8.2 or M9.

 

I have seen a few cameras on this site's classifieds that are of interest but I'm not 100% comfortable about giving a stranger thousands of pounds without some kind of buyer safety net. I would be paying through Paypal, but I'm not sure what protection that would give me.

 

My only other option is to buy from a dealer, which I'm assuming will give me more protection and peace of mind.

 

The last thing I want is to spend thousands on a (very beautiful) door stop!

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[jaapv]

Don't let the Internet forums drive you crazy -

[Brighton1975]

Don't let the Internet forums drive you crazy -

 

Don't worry - I do that all by myself! It's nice to know that, just like every other forum, threads tend to get out of hand and end up in digital playground fisticuffs haha

[Ellie]

I think the drawback on the classified here is the lack of positive/negative rating of past sales, other forums has this and eBay too. It would have been helpful.

[stunsworth]

If you feel uncomfortable about buying from a stranger do as you suggest and buy from a reputable dealer. You will probably pay more, but you'll get peace of mind and a warranty.

 

It also may be useful to look at a seller's posting history. I'd feel much more confident about buying from an active participant than someone who had only joined to sell some equipment.

[Brighton1975]

I think the drawback on the classified here is the lack of positive/negative rating of past sales, other forums has this and eBay too. It would have been helpful.

 

I'm not sure if that would help though. Someone could theoretically sell a single dodgy Leica camera for thousands and never return to the site ever again.

 

I think I'm going to have to spend an extra £500-600 and go to a high street dealer. Shame, as I could have bought another second hand lens with that money!

[Studio58]

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EBay is great for buying. Buy yourself an M8 it is a great camera. I have it and an M9 and what I am seeing out of the M8 is very impressive.

Take the plunge, there are plenty of honest sellers with great cameras. You could always ask someone here to have a look at the deal and assist with the decision.

 

With the money you save by buying an M8 s/h on EBay you will have money for optics.

[earleygallery]

As Jaap says, you can check a seller here on the forum. If it's someone who is a regular visitor then I wouldn't worry.

 

However, an M8/9 is basically an electronic appliance and can fail suddenly (just like one of my TVs did yesterday!) and I would rather buy from a dealer who offers at least 6 months warranty, ideally 12 months.

 

I've bought and sold lots of stuff through eBay and found some real bargains, but you are usually buying 'sold as seen' without the opportunity of examining or testing the camera, and IMHO most sellers descriptions of condition are somewhat optimistic!

 

Summary - buy an M8/9 from a dealer.

[Studio58]

There are great dealers who are very reputable on EBay.

Two I have purchased from being Popflash and Kurland. Both beyond reproach, above board and 100% trustworthy. I am certain that many forum members here would back that up.

[earleygallery]

If buying from a Bona fide dealer its best to deal direct IMHO and pay by credit card. You have better protection that way should something go wrong (credit protection by using your card does not apply when paying through a third party I.e. eBay/paypal although the paypal protection has worked for me).

[brill64]

most sellers descriptions of condition are somewhat optimistic!

 

Summary - buy an M8/9 from a dealer.

 

i've recently experienced this also to be true of a reputable high street dealer selling 2nd hand leica equipment online via their website.

 

i recently bought a 2nd hand m8.2 which arrived from the uk much more scratched than it appeared in the online photos, a faulty rangefinder and coffee stain/dust on the monitor, when it was sold as exc++ condition, however the electronics were fine. I was a little shocked so you do need to be vigilant.

[ayewing]

While I have been fortunate in my dealings on eBay with accessories and some lenses I would hesitate to buy an expensive item such as a M8/M9 without some form of warranty. There are also clearly dodgy deals like the chap selling a M8 with case and lens but no documentation, manual, leads etc and a third party battery charger.

 

Earlier this year I decided to return to the Leica fold and as I was uncertain if I would like a digital Leica as much as my old M2 so I bought a second hand M8.2 from a reputable London retailer. It came with a six month warranty. It turned out to have coffee staining of the screen but in the few days I had it I decided that digital Leicas were right for me so I returned it for full refund and bought a new M9 instead.

[Brighton1975]

Thanks for your thoughts. It looks like I'll have to take the high street dealer route and pay the extra for security.

 

Does anyone know anything about Stephens Premier in Manchester (www.stephenspremier.com) ? I'm going to email them in the morning and enquire about warranties. I heard one or two very positive things about the place.

 

BTW - what's 'coffee stains' on the screen? I'm assuming it's a term, and that people aren't actually using their cameras as coasters!

[cocker]

Thanks for your thoughts. It looks like I'll have to take the high street dealer route and pay the extra for security.

 

Does anyone know anything about Stephens Premier in Manchester (www.stephenspremier.com) ? I'm going to email them in the morning and enquire about warranties. I heard one or two very positive things about the place.

 

BTW - what's 'coffee stains' on the screen? I'm assuming it's a term, and that people aren't actually using their cameras as coasters!

 

Strongly recommended. Very professional dealer. I bought my M9 and my 8.2 from them and far too many lenses. Give David a ring and he will be very helpful. He's very good at charming your credit card out of your wallet but you won't regret it.

[stunsworth]

Agree with everything Keith says about Stephens. V nice shop too.

 

The coffee stain refers to a brown coloration that appears on the lcd on some M8s. Not a problem on mine.

[Brighton1975]

Thanks Cocker.

 

Their T&Cs give me good reason to believe they offer free 12 month guarantees on used cameras - pretty much the deal sealer for me.

 

As I currently live in Newport, Wales, it's a relatively short and very easy train journey to Manchester as well.

 

Thanks stunsworth for clearing up the coffee stain confusion (I'll use that term in my email!)

[MarkP]

There are great dealers who are very reputable on EBay.

Two I have purchased from being Popflash and Kurland. Both beyond reproach, above board and 100% trustworthy. I am certain that many forum members here would back that up.

 

Although my M9 and most of my Leica lenses were bought locally (Foto Reisel in Sydney). I have also bought lenses and equipment at competitive prices (compared to Australia) from Popflash and Kurland with no problems. Most of the sponsoring Leica dealers are European/British and too far away for us Australians. However, there is much to be said for building up a relationship with one dealer for your more substantial purchases. Most provide that important extra level of support for regular customers when problems arise, and that has certainly been my experience.

 

However, I think the OP is particularly asking about internet purchases from individuals rather than established dealers (new or 2nd hand).

 

Personally, I'd be comfortable buying lenses and mechanical cameras from the Forum (using common sense), but as mentioned above would probably by an electronic camera new or 2nd hand with warranty from a dealer (just as I would if buying a computer). To date I've only bought a Leica flash from a German member and the transaction went perfectly. I would certainly use PayPal for a more substantial purchase. To some extent the Paypal premium is your insurance policy for the transaction.

[bpalme]

I talked to the people at paypal about being covered. Evidently you're covered as a buyer but like said above if it breaks a week later you're out the repair cost. If it's DOA I'm sure you would get your money back.

Be extra careful selling stuff.. a lot of scams are popping up from buyers. If you don't make sure you get delivery confirmation with signature then ...they can say they did not receive the item and you don't get your money.

Having said that.. I'm a gambler and pretty cheap.. I simply enjoy trying to get a better deal so I bought a lot of used things with very little problem. Just be careful and prod and probe the sellers for all info. Try to get the very minty type of items.

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[ho_co]

...BTW - what's 'coffee stains' on the screen? ...

 

As Steve said, the 'coffee stain' is something that appears primarily on M8 LCDs, a ring around the center of the screen indicating that the cover plastic is peeling from the screen itself.

 

There may have been a case also with the sapphire glass or the M9, but it was a relatively common occurrence with M8s.

 

Use forum search for "coffee stain."

[menos I M6]

Worrying about the credibility of sellers and the classifieds for safety is a sign of not having enough proof of said variables.

 

I suggest, to follow the classifieds for a while and learn, to quickly research a seller with an interesting item on the net, to get an idea about the person.

 

I buy most of my gear via the photo forum classifieds here and on other boards and do exactly this.

I feel less comfortable with one appearances only and feel much more comfortable with known people, who happen to sell an item, that even often has a posting history itself on the same or another forum!

 

I usually research both the item in question, and the seller for his/ her own posting history.

Most people, who take part in dealing their items online via classifieds do also have a web presence in form of taking part in forums (photography, audio, cars, motorcycles, … ), run a business with online presence, present themselves via social networking sites, etc …

This way, you very quickly also will find any feedback on the seller on former transactions.

 

So far, I have never had any issues with "shady" deals this way, and in most cases have been extremely satisfied with the performance of the gear and the sellers.

 

Make it a very important part in such transactions, to verify certain key questions with the seller upfront, as many descriptions regarding condition and cosmetics are indeed very subjective (unfortunately).

So ask questions like: "Is the rear LCD screen free of ANY marks?"

Any honest seller will double check after this question and give a honest and reliable answer thereafter.

You will be unlikely surprised with a scratched screen after having read the classified description of "camera has a very nice condition LCD" or "minty- LCD screen" or alike useless grading comments.

 

With an expensive electronic device like a complex digital camera in the thousands of USD value, I certainly would prefer, to buy an item with at least a few months warranty left with Leica, to have it looked after, should any issues occur.

 

Beyond that, I would have little insecurities, buying on classifieds.

 

Checklist:

 

- known seller with reputation or record of REAL transactions?

- is the item in question known from forums (are there "see first pictures of my new Summilux" or "does my M9 have a battery drain problem" threads?)

- is the item covered by a warranty from Leica?

 

Last comment: you have to be quick! Work these checklists through quickly! Usually, you are not the first person, to inquire for the item for sale, while good deals from known sellers are gone very quick (usually during the time of your sleep, when it comes to interesting, low priced, nice condition rare vintage lenses :-( )

 

I would think twice, buying a digital camera new, when I could buy a similar, used item with the same manufacturer warranty (albeit with less time left) from a reputable seller.

You won't have any appreciation, catching up with the cost difference, as it mostly does with lenses, nor will you depreciate the item, while earning a living, creating a profit with it.

 

The beauty about buying a Leica digital camera indeed is, that unlike, buying a second hand Nikon or Canon, Leica stands up behind the product, should a manufacturing defect occur within the warranty period - I really like that aspect.