wlaidlaw Posted February 21, 2007 Share #1 Posted February 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Before I retired, I had run a reasonable sized Insurance Venture capital business. I very quickly found that if you wanted to keep your clients happy, it was vital to volunteer regular progress reports. It was a procedure that took minutes to do and was far less time consuming than pacifying them, when they phoned up to discuss progress at best or at worst, complain that they did not know what was happening. Any chance of Leica taking on board this good business practice re the 1.10 Firmware Update? I assume Leica has assembled an email group from all the registered M8 owners. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker Posted February 21, 2007 Share #2 Posted February 21, 2007 Why? They said February 07. On my calendar its February 07 for another week. I'm too busy enjoying taking great images with the camera to worry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted February 21, 2007 Share #3 Posted February 21, 2007 The problem with progress reports and software is that they are very hard to do if you are chasing problems. The simple way to look at it is that if there are 10 problems to fix, then once you have fixed 8 of them you are 80% done right? So you should trot off to the customers and tell them you are 80% done. BIG MISTAKE. The 80% may only take you 10% of the time to fix, with the other 20% taking 90% of the time. If this had been the case, we would all now be jumping up and down shouting that they were 80% done last november, how can it possibly take this long to do the rest? What are they hiding? I have been around software development long enough to know that while there are somethings you can predict, there are some things that you either can't predict, or if you do, you get it horribly wrong. Getting a prediction wrong is just as bad (and some times worse) than not opening your mouth in the first place. They said February, it's not over yet. Frankly if it ran in to March to get things right, then I (for one) would completely understand - regardless of whether I liked it or not - at least I would understand. The subject of v1.10 firmware seems to come up again and again every few days. Nothing has changed since the first post on it, so let's leave them too it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atufte Posted February 21, 2007 Share #4 Posted February 21, 2007 Before I retired, I had run a reasonable sized Insurance Venture capital business. I very quickly found that if you wanted to keep your clients happy, it was vital to volunteer regular progress reports. It was a procedure that took minutes to do and was far less time consuming than pacifying them, when they phoned up to discuss progress at best or at worst, complain that they did not know what was happening. Any chance of Leica taking on board this good business practice re the 1.10 Firmware Update? I assume Leica has assembled an email group from all the registered M8 owners. Wilson I could not agree more, it's a WAY to quiet from the Leica Headquarters, i think they should contribute more to this forum, (not only read it...) and keep us informed an up to date with the process and the further development in firmware... (That is in my eyes the least they should do after releasing the M8 with the somewhat optemistic slogan "A real M. with no ifs and buts." it's a real M alright, but there is a lot of ifs and but if you ask me...) LEICA ARE YOU LISTENING...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted February 21, 2007 Share #5 Posted February 21, 2007 and keep us informedan up to date with the process and the further development in firmware... Given my post above - what EXACTLY would you have them say? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted February 21, 2007 Given my post above - what EXACTLY would you have them say? If it were the case, I would have them say that "progress is being maintained as anticipated and barring any unforeseen problems, we are still hopeful of meeting our original target of delivering this firmware update within the February time-scale." There - that wasn't too difficult - was it? For those of us in trepidation that every time we switch on the M8 it will be the last (I have had "play" hang-up problems), update 1.10 just cannot come soon enough. I know the company's resources are of a different order but Sony had a major firmware update out on the R1 within three weeks of issue of the camera, that sorted every major problem with it and has not required updating since. They admitted within a week that a problem existed and sent registered users one progress report email and then a link to the firmware update when it was available, together with detailed instructions. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted February 21, 2007 Share #7 Posted February 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) wilson - I've missed your posts. I hope you and yours are well, and also hope to see your photos and comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_h Posted February 21, 2007 Share #8 Posted February 21, 2007 Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong with the dates here but DMR users have been waiting for revised firmware (ver.1.13) since feb 2006 ! Not defending Leica but wait another week before calling them.... Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atufte Posted February 21, 2007 Share #9 Posted February 21, 2007 Given my post above - what EXACTLY would you have them say? I would like them give us some hints of what's about to be implemented in the new firmware, like, will there be a lens selection mode in the meny (for older/and non codable lenses) - Like the Nikon D200/2X/Xs... ( they advertise that almost every M lens ever produced should work, but without this function, they are actually lying in their advertisment for this camera...) Will the firmware adress some sort of fix for the "sudden death" thing that's been reported a lot lately, and if not try to give us some comfort so we can trust our M8's for let's say a trip around the world (not everyone would like to carry a backup camera, trekking around the world, if so the whole concept of "less is more" which is the number one reason for me using a Leica M camera in the first place, will be gone ...) Like the situation is right now, i would not dare to take my M8 (as a one camera only) for such a trip, and that's a real pitty.... So just keep us informed and up to date, that's all i'm asking, not "will the firmware be out tomorrow" because i don't really care about that, only thing that matters is to get things right and let their customers (us) know there's a solution on the way... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstotler Posted February 21, 2007 Share #10 Posted February 21, 2007 If it were the case, I would have them say that "progress is being maintained as anticipated and barring any unforeseen problems, we are still hopeful of meeting our original target of delivering this firmware update within the February time-scale." <snip> Wilson Of note, Apple chooses to no provide interim communications, also. They never really comment on the state of progress with software development. This is probably wise. I do think it would make the community feel better, perhaps, if Leica would comment on how progress is going. They have seven days left until March 1st and it's looking a little tight for them meeting their own schedule. We're not really requesting features and capabilities--I think the community is requesting stability first. In any case, I'm hoping they're on target for delivery instead of being behind and coming out with a message March 1st stating that they're targeting a fix for mid-April. For the DMR people? You certainly have my sympathies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEP Posted February 21, 2007 Share #11 Posted February 21, 2007 I would like them give us some hints of what's about to be implemented in the new firmware, like, will there be a lens selection mode in the meny (for older/and non codable lenses) On the face of it, this seems reasonable - until you get back to the experience with actual software developement.... The problem with saying a new feature will be included is that if there are some remaining problems (bugs) with that feature that are the primary reason for the firmware being delayed, and then on Feb 28 they say "we promissed Feb so just take out that new function for now so we can deliver on time" all hell could break loose because people here would feel they were promissed new features that were not delivered. Most things that 'other people' do sound easy to people who only see the results and not the process, and it's often very easy to trivialise it. With software, things can go well, or they can go badly. Promissing new things before they are ready can be problematic. Now, maybe I can preempt the cries for 'tell us what is already done' by saying that anything that is 'already done' can easily be 'undone' by adding another new feature (which causes an unforseen bug in prior code) or finding / fixing another bug which create (or exposes) a previously unseen bug. Software is complicated (especially when it's tied to hardware) - and while a lot of people have 'dabled' in short programs here and there as a hobby - writing large applications with tens or hundreds of thousands of lines of code is a complicated inter-relationship business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted February 21, 2007 Share #12 Posted February 21, 2007 Well as they say "no news is good news", but I can understand peoples frustration at no development or delivery signs coming from Leica as we approach the end of Feb 07. My own view is one should always under promise and over deliver where customers are concerned and communication is key to a successful relationship. But different business models require different tactics and who am I to advise Leica how they should react to every grumble here. That being said, in the mean time I find my M8 quite usable with my self supplied filters and await in due course the updated firmware and Leica filters. I don't perceive the slippage of delivery to be serious enough that I would take a proactive approach and contact M8 support directly to ask for an update, but rather wait and see if the (when) delivered solution meets with my expectations. This brings to mind a second rule of business, "get it right first time" which I hope they do with the 1.10 firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted February 21, 2007 For me it is a very practical matter. I set off for my summer base in France, mid-March. As this year I have a 911 rather than a large Alpina-BMW, space is very limited. I would like to sell my Sony R1 before I go, rather than take it but with the current 1 in 10 risk of my M8 dying on me, that is not a chance I am prepared to take. By the time I have its two chargers, spare batteries, CF card reader, dedicated flash, filters, cables, electronic release etc, I am talking about yet another bag of stuff. Maybe if not looking for good news, I and I think many others, would appreciate an early warning if it looks like bad news. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest magyarman Posted February 21, 2007 Share #14 Posted February 21, 2007 Leica got already money from people who did buy M8. Progress report is most importantly for Leica if they care to keep interesting people who wait 1,10 before they will buy M8. Many people scare it can be like DMR what never got firmware upgrade because break of relationship with Imacon, because look like same can be with M8 because break with Jenoptik. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 21, 2007 Share #15 Posted February 21, 2007 There is no bad news and you guys are just going to have to trust me on this. It will be here soon BTW Jenopik is NOT the only one working on the firmware if at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share #16 Posted February 21, 2007 There is no bad news and you guys are just going to have to trust me on this. It will be here soon BTW Jenopik is NOT the only one working on the firmware if at all. The question in my mind Guy, is why can't Leica be as helpful as you? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 21, 2007 Share #17 Posted February 21, 2007 Well fact is no company will give a specific date on when a release is coming. Canon and Nikon don't even tell you one is coming it is just there posted on the web. Leica said they will come up with a update , so right there your ahead of the pack and even said a specific month so again much more than anyone else will tell you. Most folks don't understand what the industry does as a whole and people need to look at such things. Instead we see these demands they want it today , well that's nice but even Leica can't give a day. There will always be testing, field work and design that come into play and any of those hard dates they may set for themseleves can slip. We all know this in the manufacturing world for any product that dates can shift so it is a rare day in hell that anyone will give a specific Feb 28th date or whatever date . There sure to either not make that date or be ready sooner and any number of things can happen. All i know is there working on it very hard to get a release soon and that is all the info they will give to anyone but it is real and it is coming that part I know for sure. Will it have everything we want or need is the question, I think most if not all the fixes should be in it and that we will just have to see what happens. Trust me they want this update in our hands as much as we do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidigital Posted February 21, 2007 Share #18 Posted February 21, 2007 I look at the whole opening up of product communication as a slow evolutionary process for a company like Leica. My feeling is that change will come (in terms of release of communication) but it will not happen overnight. With the advent of the DMR and the M8, an old-world manufacturing company like Leica (we'll do it our way ... the right way) has been forced to stare the virtual immediacy of the the internet and the digital world straight in the eye. It certainly is interesting to watch from a distance. Kurt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 21, 2007 Share #19 Posted February 21, 2007 Kurt you do make a excellent point , not only did they jump into digital camera's but they also jumped into the digital world and the world has certainly changed from when www started which really was not that long ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted February 21, 2007 Share #20 Posted February 21, 2007 Although I'd like to see a resolution to the issues, I'm not the least bit worried about Leica delivering firmware 1.10 or the IR-cutoff filters. However, Blasko makes a good point that Leica's lack of regular updates could be a problem for potential M8 customers teetering on the edge. Of course, it already appears to be a problem for some here who are fixated on the number of days left in February. In fairness to Leica, it's a small company trying to do an enormous amount of engineering, manufacturing, marketing, sales, distribution, etc. with very limited resources. M8 owner may be expecting an unrealistic level of white-glove service. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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