Twotone Posted November 9, 2011 Share #1 Posted November 9, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was reading page three of the Leica M3 thread and try to go to page four but the thread disappeared as I was reading it however I had started on page four but moved to page three to pick up the last post I had read which had been posted this morning. Total bummer that was a really interesting thread, can any kind soul please PM with the ending? I understand that there is a perfectly valid reason for the thread being moderated but... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Hi Twotone, Take a look here What happened there then?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted November 9, 2011 Share #2 Posted November 9, 2011 I suppose somebody was shown to be up to no good, and the mods thought it better not to implicate LUF in the revelations. Now we will never know the details are are still prey to scammers. There are still a few threads open that dance around the same subject, who knows what to believe now. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted November 9, 2011 Thanks Steve. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted November 10, 2011 Share #4 Posted November 10, 2011 There are still a few threads open that dance around the same subject, who knows what to believe now. Steve Not as many open as when you posted this!!! Too bad, as I believe the point of a forum such as this is to discuss issues like fraud, with the understanding that the moderators would remove (i.e. moderate!!!) any specific references or names of individuals who could or would not defend themselves. IMHO the removing of entire threads is something that has no place in the so called "civilized" west. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted November 10, 2011 Share #5 Posted November 10, 2011 Recently there have been some very unusual threads and posts in the Collectors & Historica Forum. Some posts have been moderated and some threads have been completely deleted. Now, I have no issue with moderators protecting individual members, and I do not feel that every topic has the right to be discussed on a forum about Leica cameras and their users. This forum, and in particular this bar, has seen several heated discussions covering everything from religion to gun control. However I believe that posts concerning possible fake or forged Leica cameras and documentation in online auctions is completely germane. This forum has over 8000 active members, and the amount of money spent by this collective group on such auctions is probably easily in six or seven figures in anyone's currency. Is that not reason enough, in the greater interests of the membership at large, to allow this topic to be discussed? Based on some of the posts I've seen recently you have to wonder whether the Collectors & Historica forum has been used by some as an online university for how to create the perfect auction, genuine or otherwise... Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 10, 2011 Share #6 Posted November 10, 2011 I think I know the thread you're referring to, about an M3 for sale? I'm not surprised that it was deleted because the OP had made a thread claiming that the seller was 'a crook'. If the seller saw that he could take legal action for the character assassination, against not only the OP but also against Andreas who owns this forum. People seem to forget, this isn't a virtual world - the Internet - break the law and it's just the same as in 'real life'. I'm not sure what you mean by your last comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted November 10, 2011 Share #7 Posted November 10, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) James, I absolutely agree that the forum is no place for libel and slander, and that laws cannot be broken online any more than in person. However, the entire thread did not need to be deleted, only references to specific individuals. I absolutely believe that we should examine online auctions and question the authenticity of some of the items that appear. Fraud and forgery is nothing new to Leica, and we should be able to discuss it without entire threads disappearing. As for my last statement, well I think it speaks for itself. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 10, 2011 Share #8 Posted November 10, 2011 There were accusations of fraud and underhand dealings throughout that thread. If a Moderator had tried to redact or remove individual posts which were unacceptable, the remainder would have not made any sense. I have tried to do that in the past and it's almost impossible to do successfully and extremely time consuming. Sorry, but that kind of accusative behaviour is not acceptable on the forum. The whole thread was Sandboxed after discussions between the Mods and Andreas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted November 10, 2011 Share #9 Posted November 10, 2011 I believe the thread was no more sensational or accusatory than the one now going on concerning the obviously fake Cartier-Bresson M3, the only difference is the Korean gentlemen who own that particular website are not here defending themselves. Is it OK to discuss, review or call into question Leica cameras and or accessories appearing on websites or auctions that might to some members appear as "less than genuine" if the conversation is limited to the item and not the owner or seller? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 10, 2011 Share #10 Posted November 10, 2011 Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 10, 2011 Share #11 Posted November 10, 2011 James, I absolutely agree that the forum is no place for libel and slander, and that laws cannot be broken online any more than in person. However, the entire thread did not need to be deleted, only references to specific individuals. I absolutely believe that we should examine online auctions and question the authenticity of some of the items that appear. Fraud and forgery is nothing new to Leica, and we should be able to discuss it without entire threads disappearing. As for my last statement, well I think it speaks for itself. Stephen No it doesn't..? As to the thread, like a Tower of Jenga, I think it would have been impossible to pull out the offending threads without making the rest unstable and nonsensical. I am against censorship but that was a thread started with an agenda and sandboxing it was the right thing to do, IMO. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica__M3 Posted November 10, 2011 Share #12 Posted November 10, 2011 Apology Dear all, I am very new here, and up until this post my only contribution to this community was a somewhat long and detailed post in the thread that has now been moderated. Without passing further judgement on the matters covered within that offending thread, I just wanted to say I am sincerely sorry if my contribution caused offence and/or heightened the need for moderation/deletion of the thread. Having been a forum moderator in another place I am aware just how difficult it can be. So, whilst personally I am annoyed at myself for not keeping a copy of my 'work' (as it was useful reasearch for myself... if nothing else), I am quite comfortable with it being removed if one or more moderators were of the opinion the thread and/or my post needed to be. Again, my apologies if my first contribution contributed to the controversy and/or made me look potentially troubling. With my mea culpa now out of the way, and as somewhat of a newcomer to the world of Rangefinder/Leica photography, please note I hope to both learn much more from the wise words within these pages, and hopefully also to every now and then offer small contributions of my own. Hopefully of a generally non-controversial nature. Meanwhile I'll get back to my reading. Yesterday the postman arrived with my new leatherbound and signed 3 volume set of Jim Lager's "Illustrated History etc". Buying the leatherbound versions involved an additional investment over the standard 3 volume set, however an investment I am very happy to have made. They are a feast for the eyes, a pleasing addition to my book shelves, and ultimately like my Leica Rangefinder Camera itself, what I hope will be a lifetime investment. Cheers and best wishes, D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted November 10, 2011 Share #13 Posted November 10, 2011 Perhaps it could be resurrected as a fictional Poirot style story with characters that are not in any way based on real people ? I was enthralled and just about to get the Nobo board out and plot the action such was the intrigue outlined in one of the last posts. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 11, 2011 Share #14 Posted November 11, 2011 Perhaps it could be resurrected as a fictional Poirot style story with characters that are not in any way based on real people ? I was enthralled and just about to get the Nobo board out and plot the action such was the intrigue outlined in one of the last posts. Steve Well... I confess that a pair of years ago (during vacation....) I imagined the plot of a story Poirot style (to be true, was more Maigret style...) based on a crime under which was a obscure story based on Leitz gear... ... if I had time could even be I'd start to write something... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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