beewee Posted November 3, 2011 Share #1 Posted November 3, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just speculating... but it looks like Kodak might not last beyond the end of 2012. For a company like Leica where most of its revenue is generated by or depend on a few key products, I'm not sure if Leica can risk using Kodak sensors in the medium term. There's definitely more reason for Leica to migrate the next generation M-cameras to a Sony (or some other company) CMOS sensor than the fact that a CMOS sensor can provide live-view or even video recording. With Kodak balancing precariously on the brink of bankruptcy, Leica can't really afford to have the production of its bread and butter camera shut down due to sensor shortages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 Hi beewee, Take a look here Sony CMOS for M10?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest happytogger Posted November 3, 2011 Share #2 Posted November 3, 2011 Its prolly too late to happen was never gonna happen. Leica could have pressed Sigma for a FullFrame sensor SD1 foveon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anasebi Posted November 7, 2011 Share #3 Posted November 7, 2011 Its prolly too late to happen was never gonna happen.Leica could have pressed Sigma for a FullFrame sensor SD1 foveon. Considering all the trouble Sigma has gone through, no way at all ever was sigma ever in the cards! Look at the SD1, they cannot even get the APS-C to do video and had to jack up the price to m9 price, which was dumb and has likely killed the SD-1 and Sigma Foveron more than any good. Sony is the sensor king, a next gen Full frame Sony Cmos with no AA and good offset lense(at which Sony has proven adept when they want) would easily please Leica standards for the foreseeable future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest happytogger Posted November 7, 2011 Share #4 Posted November 7, 2011 Considering all the trouble Sigma has gone through, no way at all ever was sigma ever in the cards! Look at the SD1, they cannot even get the APS-C to do video and had to jack up the price to m9 price, which was dumb and has likely killed the SD-1 and Sigma Foveron more than any good. Sony is the sensor king, a next gen Full frame Sony Cmos with no AA and good offset lense(at which Sony has proven adept when they want) would easily please Leica standards for the foreseeable future. A few have said Sony Nex5n / 7 images look plasticky. M9,M9p is known for its naturalness. CCD as i understand has that natural characteristic & lower noise at base iso, yet is not as noise free as CMOS at higer iso. Who knows why SD1 was priced so high. yet as one pro photographer said SD1: Detailed Analysis by David FitzSimmons | SIGMA Blog "David FitzSimmons : while the D3x is a great camera, I'm convinced that the SD1 is the highest resolution 35mm D-SLR on the market. The details resolved by the SD1 are unbelievable." Imagine the SD1 sensor asa FF on M10 with Leica glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anasebi Posted November 7, 2011 Share #5 Posted November 7, 2011 I own a 5N and concur that it's nothing next to my M9, but thats apples to full frame oranges... and even so still Fujifilm uses an CMOS in its APS-C X100 and many consider it to have very CCD like IQ. Sony, or anyone now but Sigma could easily, easily make a 35mm format sensor that would satisfy anyone on this forum if Leica gave them specific performance perimeters. Sigma cannot because Foveron has major teething problems. I have family who work semiconductor business, a family of products that CMOS of all kinds lie firmly within. When you have yield and reliability/heat issues it only gets exponentially worse the larger you go, Until Sigma drops the price of the SD-1 by half and ships them out en mass they are in no position to supply anyone with sensors. Thats assuming there is method to their madness and they are not run by morons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 7, 2011 Share #6 Posted November 7, 2011 Sorry guys, the Foveon has a narrow angle of acceptance and thus is utterly unsuited to a rangefinder. The best bet would be a back-lit Cmos like Sony produces - if they manage to find a substrate that is strong enough to produce a full-frame sensor. Anyway, the parameters of the M10 are prerty well fixed by now I would guess. A redesign at this point to accomodate a different sensor would be cost- prohibitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beewee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share #7 Posted November 8, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just poked around on DALSA's website and it looks like they have a 24MP full frame CCD. Conceivably, if Leica wanted to stick with CCDs for one more generation, they could use the DALSA chip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted November 17, 2011 Share #8 Posted November 17, 2011 I think Leica will stick to ccds.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuca Posted November 17, 2011 Share #9 Posted November 17, 2011 I think Leica will stick to ccds.. I wish so, but I think cmos will be their choice due to its video and live view capability Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_consul Posted November 17, 2011 Share #10 Posted November 17, 2011 It seems, that Sony's CMOS is not a really new technology: Sony Global - News Release - Sony Develops 35mm full size CMOS Image Sensor with 24.81 Effective Megapixel resol Canon seems to use more latest technology, but probably not really ready to share with other camera vendors: Image Sensors World: Canon Full-frame 35mm Sensor News --- The new 70 MP CMOS from independent company CMOSIS (located in Belgium) seems to be interesting: CHR70M - CMOSIS But seriously - CMOSIS provides a new "35mm-like CMOS" in they road map: Image Sensors World: CMOSIS CMV Roadmap Pixel pitch of 6.4 µm will mean about 5500 x 3700 = 20 MP resolution.. Best, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted November 18, 2011 Share #11 Posted November 18, 2011 Sony's A900 full frame DSLR with 24.8 Mpx has been around for over three years now. I know because I have used one to replace my Leica M9/DMR for that period of time! Now the new Sony A77 DST and Nex 7 cameras with APS-c sensors are 24Mpx and their replacement full frame camera expected to be called the A99 DST will have a 36 Mpx sensor. I have recently used the A77 on a trip to India in dusty and sometimes rough terrain and it worked perfectly.(It is a fully dust, moisture sealed camera) Many of my images were taken at ISO1600. The full frame camera is now riding as a back-up for the A77. Frankly, Leica have a tough job on their hands but I really hope that they get there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_consul Posted November 18, 2011 Share #12 Posted November 18, 2011 I'm really doubt, if Japanese company (Sony) will really ready to sell any sensors to low-volume manufacturer located in Europe (Leica). Additionally it seems not really reasonable for Leica to rise the resolution significantly - 34 MP means about twice more data ammount, that have to be handle in comparison with M9... Therefore I guess, that it is more reasonable to select European CMOS vendor (e.g. CMOSIS, from Belgium), that can provide the newest sensor technology with the same pixel pitch (6.4 µm), as already used e.g. in full frame Canons: 5D Mark II and 1Ds Mark III = 5616x3744 (21 MP): Nikon and Canon DSLR Camera Specifications Compared Best, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted November 19, 2011 Share #13 Posted November 19, 2011 I'm really doubt, if Japanese company (Sony) will really ready to sell any sensors to low-volume manufacturer located in Europe (Leica). Sony are doing that now; why should they stop? (The X1 has a Sony sensor.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted November 19, 2011 Share #14 Posted November 19, 2011 Sony are doing that now; why should they stop? (The X1 has a Sony sensor.) Shock horror, Sony imager in Leica badged camera Only thing that is timeless and worth adoration is Leica superb optics, Leica is after all optical company. Modern digital sensors come and go in usual short development cycles same as personal computers. If Leica wants to grow as a business it is time to embrace sensors from reliable mass producer, one who has means to develop and manufacture. If it is good for Nikon should be fit for purpose for Leica. Nikon actually makes machinery for producing microchips and optical sensors and have history of developing its own sensors but relies heavily on Sony sensors for use in its flagship cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted November 20, 2011 Share #15 Posted November 20, 2011 Personally I do not think nikon is a very "cooperative" company. They stopped making fuji dslrs. Sony seems a better bet overall. Large scale, willingness to supply, etc,etc. All these will culminate in another CCD vs CMOS discussion haha....for what it is worth in good light CCDs produce more "realistic" images to my eyes. I retrieved an image from years ago done on the ancient D80 (with a CCD) and MP count aside the images trump the ones I am seeing from my also aging but newer D300. And that was done on a cheapie 18-200 zoom lens btw. Apart from all the tech analysis and discussion the bottom line is that the images are the interplay of sensor, lens and in camera processing. I sure hope leica doesnt lose their mojo in switching sensors. CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted November 20, 2011 Share #16 Posted November 20, 2011 My guess is eventually Leica will move to live view and video capabilities... if its the M10- M11- or a new separate M mount system I don't know.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalpowershot Posted January 12, 2012 Share #17 Posted January 12, 2012 Imagine a 20MP FF Sigma X3 sensor and Leica glass... dreaming... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_consul Posted September 17, 2012 Share #18 Posted September 17, 2012 Hello, it seems, that the guess about CMOSIS, as a CMOS vendor for the new M(10) was a good shot - at the page 23 of: http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_6988.pdf stay following: "The new sensor is an innovative, high-tech product developed by Leica in collaboration with CMOSiS especially for the new Leica M and for use with M- and R-Lenses. This development has successfully transferred the characteristic advantages of CCD sensors to a CmoS sensor, and preserves the natural, brilliant colour rendition and impressive detail resolution associated with CCD sensors." Best, Alexander It seems, that Sony's CMOS is not a really new technology:Sony Global - News Release - Sony Develops 35mm full size CMOS Image Sensor with 24.81 Effective Megapixel resol Canon seems to use more latest technology, but probably not really ready to share with other camera vendors: Image Sensors World: Canon Full-frame 35mm Sensor News --- The new 70 MP CMOS from independent company CMOSIS (located in Belgium) seems to be interesting: CHR70M - CMOSIS But seriously - CMOSIS provides a new "35mm-like CMOS" in they road map: Image Sensors World: CMOSIS CMV Roadmap Pixel pitch of 6.4 µm will mean about 5500 x 3700 = 20 MP resolution.. Best, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beewee Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share #19 Posted September 17, 2012 Yup, just saw that. The microlens structure appears to have been changed from a somewhat spherical shape to a hyperbolic shape to improve sensitivity to high incident rays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted September 18, 2012 Share #20 Posted September 18, 2012 I don`t care about live view or video, or high ISO. I want a bare bones quality digital camera. My new M9P does it in spades for me. The files have better color than the M8 has and I checked two M8 cameras. I did a walk around town today testing my 21 2.8, 28 2.8, & 35 all from 1980`s. I replaced all the mounts with the Chinese ones and coded them. I did this a while back and thought all was well, but it was not. They are all .001" to thick. I ground them down to proper thickness and the pics are now perfect. I was sort of a mixed sun, overcast, cloudy , fast changing light day. I normally do not do photos in this light , but I got anxious. New camera you know. So I resorted to auto WB which I never use except for serious mixed lighting, and even auto exposure. Just walked around snapping some DNG, opened in CS6 and was amazed at what I saw. The colors and tones were superb, best I have ever seen on a small camera. I did nothing to enhance them, no curves, no saturation boost , just default sharpening. I have to work to get my pro Nikon files to look this good and frankly they do not get there, even with the pro body and latest lenses. Even if I put my Leica lenses on them. Sony CMOS for higher ISO might be nice for some. I prefer getting more light or a tripod. But I do not have to do weddings in dark churches. I was happy with Kodachrome 25. Kodachrome 2 was even better. I can only imagine what the S2 camera will do. Too big and heavy and expensive for me, but it must be amazing. They can do the cmos thing if they want, but they better not loose the picture quality they have now chasing the latest fad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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