erl Posted September 27, 2011 Share #21 Posted September 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) My 2c's worth on the question of digital imaging and the Leica M8/9 is simple and straight forward. I should also include other brand excellent digital tools as well. They are all tools that enhance my work and my ability to perform it. So to is filmic photography. Comparing them with each other is similar to comparing 'the book' with 'the film'. They are separate media and not competitors. They are tools. It takes a skilled craftsman to both choose and use the right tool. If it's not working, look in the mirror for the possible reason. As far as cost is concerned, if you've got the need and the money, pay up and shut up. If you don't want to spend the money, back up and shut up. Either way, it's a business deal. Negotiate if you can, but don't try to run someone else's business model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Hi erl, Take a look here Justifying the cost for a M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted September 27, 2011 Share #22 Posted September 27, 2011 Amazing-you were there yesterday and already you have seen the prints of the images all these people took. ***Off Topic*** On a funny though i went to the Chinese Lantern exposition yesterday... The amount of people with D90/D300/D700 and Canon equivalent using a tripod + flash was overwhelming (i saw 2 M9 shooters)... I took a peak at a couple of them, blah. I'm guessing its 'shoot now with everything installed and on auto and photoshop later to make it somewhat acceptable'. The M9 shooters had horrible noise, i'm guessing a 0.95 IS needed to keep ISO low... Nice chaps though, one is a member here and had some strong feedback (+/-) of his M9 (I'm sorry i can't remember your username!). I was shooting 1600 ISO f2-f4 very comfortably with my X100 (camera doesn't really matter). Pictures came out near perfect inside the camera, all i had to do is transfer them, very minor tweaking of black and voila done. Sharp, clean, perfectly night exposed pictures with near zero noise. Contrast was superb. If people spent more time learning/studying than buying gear... their pictures would be so much better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted September 27, 2011 Share #23 Posted September 27, 2011 I was shooting 1600 ISO f2-f4 very comfortably with my X100. Pictures came out near perfect inside the camera, all i had to do is transfer them, very minor tweaking of black and voila done. Sharp, clean, perfectly night exposed pictures with near zero noise. I'd be interested to view some of your work in the original file size; do you have a stream on Flickr? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted September 27, 2011 Share #24 Posted September 27, 2011 Won't be holding the breath waiting for those photos..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 27, 2011 Share #25 Posted September 27, 2011 Doesn't matter, they sound like KM25 used to call shaved-male-legs images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted September 27, 2011 Share #26 Posted September 27, 2011 There is no justification with the NEX 7 at $1,199.00!!! The M9 is just overpriced and too expensive. While I own the M9 and agree that it is too expensive, it is a totally different camera than the Nex-7 (which appears to be cool as well). However, you are comparing a mass produced, APS-C, EVF camera to a semi-hand made, full frame, mechanical rangefinder camera...which ultimately is not fair unless you are immune to ergonomics and never fell in love with mechanical rangefinders in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anasebi Posted September 27, 2011 Share #27 Posted September 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) ---and never fell in love with mechanical rangefinders in the first place. That is my affliction. Still Not having to deal with a crop factor alone in something that just heavy as opposed to massive and heavy, is beyond great and makes me feel a bit more sane. And that Nex 7 that to be its killer, now that there are some full size pictures taken by people who know what they are doing finally floating about my confidence in the camera is returning. However the one problem with it is -gasp- just like the problem with the M9. It’s pretty at base ISO and can output great resolution thanks to weak AAf, but get noisy fast compared to its clean 16mp(Nex5n/C3/D7000) counterparts the full frame DSLR. It does not have the translucent mirror of the A77 so it is a stop brighter; but like the M9, you are going to want fast lenses for it. I paid for my preorder last week and I cannot wait to see how far I can push the Nex 7 to cover all my other cameras. Besides sensor; to me smaller size and higher resolve is always ideal. DSLRs to me are great if they are very fast, good phase detect and RAW buffer... but only because that means I am done with work faster. What justifies the M9 to me: picking it up and finding new things and It rather keeps my desire to break out a roll for my old RFs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleskin Posted September 27, 2011 Share #28 Posted September 27, 2011 Here are some samples from a Russian Photographer in studio conditions with the NEX 7. This camera is no slouch and is capable of pro level work. I have an M8 and use a 50mm Summicron in studio conditions and the NEX 7 blows it away in resolution. If the NEX 7 would use a 50mm Summicron that would be amazing! For me, cameras are tools and my lenses are much more prized. For $1,200 USD, the NEX 7 seems like a best buy, even if you have an M8 or M9! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/162734-justifying-the-cost-for-a-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1803857'>More sharing options...
eleskin Posted September 27, 2011 Share #29 Posted September 27, 2011 Here is the color! I did the Black and White conversion in CS4. I am impressed and cannot wait to mount my 50mm Summicon on this thing in the studio!!!! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/162734-justifying-the-cost-for-a-m9/?do=findComment&comment=1803861'>More sharing options...
eleskin Posted September 27, 2011 Share #30 Posted September 27, 2011 Did you see this? I can se the Russian models contact lens glass!!! It is that sharp!!! WWWOWW!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted September 27, 2011 Share #31 Posted September 27, 2011 Do the contact lenses not show up because of the deffuse reflections of light? Is the 'sharpness' not more closely linked to the lighting and aperture used? Whatever the camera/lens/lighting set-up used here; my humble opinion is that it's not done a great job of flattering the model. Sharpness is not everything. Well; it certainly isn't to me. That said; your M8 & 50 Cron should easily be able replicate this level of 'sharpness' and match the 'printability' of the NEX7 files. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 27, 2011 Share #32 Posted September 27, 2011 daveolson, I was inappropriately sharp in my response. Let me just say that I can only guess what your perspective is, and it's unfair for me to presume. I worked with fellows who use MF and LF for press photography who had views of 35mm photographers much like my view of digital photographers many years ago: they thought 35mm photographers were undisciplined and wasting film (never mind that one 4x5 == ~several exposures of 35mm). In fact, there is an exhibit in our little town from such a photographer, now deceased. He was called One Shot Kelley. I aquired some of his flood and flashbulbs. And we drove the same old VW Bug! Whatever works for you is good. I would love to see some of your work. I've wondered if I could recreate his role, but newspapers don't take 4x5 submissions around here. Take Care, Pico ASIDE: See Shorpy for great site for earlier photography. Although it rather exposes me, here's a shot http://www.shorpy.com/node/2240 of yours truly in there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleskin Posted September 27, 2011 Share #33 Posted September 27, 2011 Pico: I like your statement :Whatever works! For me, I think of the end product, the print and subject matter /impact way more than this camera or that lens. When I see some of my students work (I teach digital and darkroom) I could not care less about what camera they were using. I care more about the idea presented in their photographs they are presenting to me. Impact, that is the word. That being said, I think it is wonderful news we are getting more high quality choices at reasonable prices of camera bodies that increasingly can mount more types of lenses. Digital is evolving at such a pace, the quality differences between pro and non pro cameras in terms of the files they create are becoming less and less, so like in the film days, it may not matter what camera you are using but more so the lenses you are using and most importantly, your "eye" in terms of what you are actually creating. Many of us who like the M8 and M9 may be doing so more because we like the cameras layout and rangefinder experience better than DSLR's etc,,,. Also, we like the "look" Leica M mount lenses create. What is really cool right now is the new cameras like the NEX 7 etc,, are creating a new market for all kinds of lenses, new and used, that can be mounted on the camera because of the short distance where the lens mounts and the sensor. Increasingly I am looking at the camera more as a digital back for my lenses more so than ever. For me, my best cameras are my lenses, and the camera is a digital back, nothing more. If they come in at a cheaper price, more the better! That means more money for delicious lenses on Ebay , and supplies to make prints from my Epson 3800 on Exhibition Fiber! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 27, 2011 Share #34 Posted September 27, 2011 Not the best way to engage newcomer to the forum by reading him the Riot Act by self appointed Leica advocate. There is nothing wrong with OP rant. His opinion is equally valuable as any other expressed here. I wouldn't mind cheaper M9. There is no justification with the NEX 7 at $1,199.00!!! The M9 is just overpriced and too expensive. If it were the price of what the M8 was in 07 ($4,700) that would be more realistic. I bought a used M8 a year ago for $1,800 USD and in 2 years I would pay that for a used M9. In the meantime, I will be using a NEX 7 when it comes out! I'm with Mladen completely. It all comes down to one's own assessment as to the value of money. Of course I would also like the M9 to cost less. But it doesn't. To all who say a camera is too expensive I always suggest that they go and build an equally good one for less money. Naturally companies charge a margin - after all, they're in business to make money. So what is your view on the value of money? If the M9 is worth it, then the price is OK. To begin, I really don't like digital photography. Having shot film for decades and seriously tried digital, I have to say I agree. But I wouldn't say digital has no place in my life. I use both. Ronan, clearly your views are not shared by all, and vice versa. That is fine and democratic, however, the use of abusive language will not be tolerated when directed at another forum member, regardless of whether you agree with him/her or not. Accordingly I have moderated your outburst. Thanks Erl. Being a Leica newbie and having as a result followed this forum intensively the last few months, I have noticed a very clear sharpening of tone and language. I have seen that there are some members - including some, who, surprisingly have been members of this forum for many years - who are unwelcoming, unconstructive and unhelpful. I find that sad. Let's keep it nice and friendly. Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anasebi Posted September 27, 2011 Share #35 Posted September 27, 2011 the depreciation arguments do make me laugh. Protip, no one is getting an decent M9 anywhere for less than $4k in the next few years through legal channels. Despite what people may want to think, there is nothing that glaringly wrong with the M9 as to cause a mass selloff when the M10 eventually gets launched, like the M8 to M9. Around here of course you will find many M8 owners who swear they will never get an M9, but that doesn't change the certain fact that +80% of M8 owners tossed theirs after thinking "HOT DAMN, NO MORE CROP!" after the M9 was announced. That is why the M8 value took a faceplant. I won't give the M10 a second look because there really is nothing they can do to make me want it. I find the M9s ISO performance and functionality fine and its pictures with my lenses sublime. I'd have to go medium format to get better results than what I get now, things get dark I just break out the ultra fast glass. If I want video and I rarely do, thats what companies like Sony and Canon do best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anupmc Posted September 27, 2011 Share #36 Posted September 27, 2011 ...I won't give the M10 a second look because there really is nothing they can do to make me want it. ... Famous last words I'm sure there's plenty to look forward to with the M10, even if you're completely satisfied with the M8/M9. To the point of this thread though, I'm not sure why some people make it out as if they're being forced to buy a Leica M digital... If it's too expensive and beyond your justifiable spend, then by all means buy something else, simple! Wingeing about it in a random posts isn't going to help much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted September 27, 2011 Share #37 Posted September 27, 2011 @erl Sorry I have poor tolerance toward people like that. OP has all the right to post and no one has the right to tell him he doesn't. Unless Admin or Moderator says so. I apologize for giving you work erl. @Phancj Reread what I wrote, you are misunderstanding my post. I was referring to people that believe gear > skills. In that context they were using too much gear and wrong settings with DSLR's that can easily do the task at hand. I know, I did it before with D3 and D300 and now a little X100. Point, learn to use the gear before amassing more and using it all inneproprietly and insufficiently. PS: M6 tagged along all day long today. What a beautiful day! The calm before the storm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted September 27, 2011 Share #38 Posted September 27, 2011 Isn't the point he is making that he has spent many years developing his skills to produce high quality images on film, a skill. He has learned his craft and become proficient at what he does. Along comes digital and any a'level student can produce the same quality by using a digital camera and photoshop. No everyone is claiming to be a photographer many of whom do not know what depth of field or reciprocity is. I have some sympathy with this point of view. I have no idea what he is on bout regarding the pricing structure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 27, 2011 Share #39 Posted September 27, 2011 I won't give the M10 a second look because there really is nothing they can do to make me want it. How so? You don't know what the M10, should it become so, will be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 28, 2011 Share #40 Posted September 28, 2011 Isn't the point he is making that he has spent many years developing his skills to produce high quality images on film, a skill. He has learned his craft and become proficient at what he does. Along comes digital and any a'level student can produce the same quality by using a digital camera and photoshop. No everyone is claiming to be a photographer many of whom do not know what depth of field or reciprocity is. I have some sympathy with this point of view. I have no idea what he is on bout regarding the pricing structure. Paul, many may agree with what you say, and believe it. OTOH, I spent 50+ years (and still going!) leaning filmic photography to the point where I am pretty proficient. Digital does present an apparent 'short cut' to photography, but it is not real IMO. I expect to spend another 50 years learning the craft of digital to the point where it matches my skill with film. I remember as a young man thinking 'now I know it all'. As I have got older, I realize the more I learn, the more there is to learn. There is no end. So your 'A grade' students will come unstuck at some point, then hopefully progress to more knowledge and skill. You cannot successfully replace experience. Technical quality is one thing, basically it is a tool. The 'eye of experience' and 'art' are quite different. Not all will ever achieve it. As far as the cost is concerned, well I have already said my bit on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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