M9reno Posted September 16, 2011 Share #1 Posted September 16, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) A quick, and perhaps obvious question: should a M3 with s.n. 1079*** be expected to have an engraved baseplate ("auf-zu..."). An example on a camera I am interested in looks mint, but is unengraved. Thanks for your help! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Hi M9reno, Take a look here Unengraved M3 baseplate. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted September 17, 2011 Share #2 Posted September 17, 2011 Yes, normally they have the bilingual engraving : there can be lot of reasons for the item you consider has not... baseplates were (and still are) available as spares in the market, both original and not. If you know the seller, ask about : if he is a serious dealer he can give explanations... M3 is such a fine item that imho, when one considers to buy, is always better to deal with someone you can really trust in (my one is from a well known member of this forum... ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks. This particular example comes through Foto Brell, Frankfurt, with whom I have never dealt before: perhaps other forum members have. The plate seems to have a transparent protective film cover, which may suggest a replacement part or copy, though not necessarily. I would be grateful to hear from any M3 owners with unengraved samples of or ca. this date (1963) that they know to be original. Thanks again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted September 17, 2011 Share #4 Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks. This particular example comes through Foto Brell, Frankfurt, with whom I have never dealt before: perhaps other forum members have. The plate seems to have a transparent protective film cover, which may suggest a replacement part or copy, though not necessarily. I would be grateful to hear from any M3 owners with unengraved samples of or ca. this date (1963) that they know to be original. Thanks again! Be sure, it's a spare part (moreover at the time there was never a thing like transparent protective film cover) Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks, sabears. Doubtless the plastic is new, and to me also suggests the plate is the same, but one can always cover an old part with new plastic. My question really is whether in the lengthy production run of M3s, among the many known variations, an unengraved plate might be among them. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted September 17, 2011 Share #6 Posted September 17, 2011 Thanks, sabears. Doubtless the plastic is new, and to me also suggests the plate is the same, but one can always cover an old part with new plastic. My question really is whether in the lengthy production run of M3s, among the many known variations, an unengraved plate might be among them. Thanks again. Yes, one can always cover an old part with new plastic but vintage original base plate were always engraved (also the chrome finish is a little bit different). Later spare parts were not, this is the reason I believe it's 100% a not original one. Greetings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #7 Posted September 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you, sabears. In order to facilitate discussion, a link to the camera and baseplate in question: eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices If it's definitely not original, then the following question would be: is it a generic part, or is it traceable to Leitz, either as a spare, or to another M model. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted September 17, 2011 Share #8 Posted September 17, 2011 The seller is honest and fair, he admits: "LEICA M3 No. 1079171 - RESTORED BY LEICA... ...the camera has been restored original by Leica in the mid/end of 90ies and been used very little since then..." If you look closely you see that even the top plate is new. The original one had totally different engravings on the back ( I mean the flash ones). Now it's a beautiful restored camera, but if you want a genuine vintage one it's not your deal. Best regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted September 17, 2011 If you look closely you see that even the top plate is new. The original one had totally different engravings on the back ( I mean the flash ones). Indeed! Great eye. The lightning bolt is skinny, and the bulb missing its reflection line from the top right - this version looks like a little footprint. Well, since that is the case, and even the s.n. is not original, then how is one to establish that any other part of the camera is? I had no idea Leica did total restorations of this sort, and the language in the ad I had taken less literally to mean no more than "very thorough CLA". I'd be interested as to whether the gut feeling of other members, given these details (and putting aside the steep asking price), would advise to stay away from this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted September 17, 2011 Following up on my last post I should have added that, upon inquiry, this camera apparently has an "L" seal, but the dealer has no paperwork documenting the restoration by Leica in the 90's. One can fret for a long time about the meaning of the word "genuine" (Star Wars fans seem to be in the midst of heated argument on this question as I write) - but my question is simply whether and how, given a complete restoration of this sort, one can be sure this really is/was ever Leica M3 No. 1079***. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 17, 2011 Share #11 Posted September 17, 2011 Uhm... now the story seems rather clear : it is known and reported (I have some examples in the Italian Magazine "Classic Camera") that Leica co., well until recent years (dunno if even today) did accept to restore in house old Ms, BUT it could happen that they didn't use parts identical to the original ones, simply for they hadn't them anymore... and it was out of any logic to BUILD them "on demand" : I remember well to have seen this about tops, other deatails like take-up spools, windows of VF/RF (*)... no surprise if this would involve baseplates too... So you had a singular case of cameras : - Original, basically (no reason they should change the s/n) - Factory restored... usually to be regarded as a "stamp of originality" - But NOT in original conditions - (very probably) fully and perfectly working To say, a very usable "classic" in not original conditions : an item very appealing for people who want USING above all... for a longtime user who simply wants to continue using safely his beloved M3... not so much for collectors who, expecially for M3, with all its native variations during its production life, are very keen to "original status" My opinion : if such a camera would be accompanied with the documents about factory restoration (even only a Leica co,'s bill, reporting s/n) it has anyway a collectible "grade"... otherwise, given that spare parts were available (original or not) from several alternative sources, it remains a fine user item, simply (surely with a value). Without the documents, the price requested on ebay is imho someway too high... but this is just my idea. (*) Maybe someone remembers the so called "DOF indicator" which was made for M3 (starting froma certain s/n) and M2... was an oddity that, in case of restoration in the '90s, I suppose was lost in case of VF restoration / substitution... when I asked about this possible maintenace on my M2, they told me that I probably would have installed a M4 VF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted September 17, 2011 Thank you very much, Luigi. Since the dealer has no papers to provide to document the restoration, perhaps an alternative might be to ask Leica whether it keeps any record of the restoration, or even to look at the camera to confirm that the restoration was done in-house. If this can be done, it would be ideal. The existence of a numbered box is an interesting element in this case - does it provide any reassurance of genuineness or assuage scepticism about the camera's history? In any case, since the aim in my case is to have a beautiful but (equally importantly) USER M3, the clincher of course, would be to use the camera and test whether all functions (50, 90, 135 frames, .91 magnification, depth-of-field viewfinder guides etc) are as one would expect in an M3. The price is admittedly quite high, but doesn't seem a bad option - the dealer accepts returns... Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted September 18, 2011 Share #13 Posted September 18, 2011 The price, LOL!!! Edit: Just to add to the absurb price, you can pick up 3 M3, all fully CLA by Kindermann in near mint condition for around $1200 here. I'm sure bigger cities have even more/better deals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 18, 2011 Share #14 Posted September 18, 2011 Quick, someone tell me what Zut and Auff mean. My 58 Volkswagen has no gas gauge. Just that switch and I think I put it in backwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 18, 2011 Share #15 Posted September 18, 2011 Thank you very much, Luigi. Since the dealer has no papers to provide to document the restoration, perhaps an alternative might be to ask Leica whether it keeps any record of the restoration, or even to look at the camera to confirm that the restoration was done in-house. If this can be done, it would be ideal. The existence of a numbered box is an interesting element in this case - does it provide any reassurance of genuineness or assuage scepticism about the camera's history? ,,,, . Yes, numbered box is an addon valued in the collectors' market... but of course one must not factor into it an exaggerated value (any amount is of course questionable... I dare say "from 100 to 250 Euros" ?) , while manuals are common cheap materials... that's the reasons why I personally find the price in a high side... to have an idea, look for instance at the site of this serious and expert dealer (no few M3s, at the moment, and he is very trustable on the conditions he declares) : Newoldcamera - Prodotti Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prunelle Posted September 18, 2011 Share #16 Posted September 18, 2011 Quick, someone tell me what Zut and Auff mean. My 58 Volkswagen has no gas gauge. Just that switch and I think I put it in backwards. Zu and Auf? Close and Open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted September 18, 2011 Share #17 Posted September 18, 2011 Quick, someone tell me what Zut and Auff mean. My 58 Volkswagen has no gas gauge. Just that switch and I think I put it in backwards. Been there, done that: what a way to save petrol. Briefly! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted September 18, 2011 Share #18 Posted September 18, 2011 Been there, done that: what a way to save petrol. Briefly! From very distant memory, isn't that a reserve supply? I never actually owned a Beetle but I had an air cooled camper once, that had the luxury of a fuel guage Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted September 18, 2011 Share #19 Posted September 18, 2011 Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twotone Posted September 18, 2011 Share #20 Posted September 18, 2011 I've dealt with this dealer and had no problems whatsoever however the item was of low value, either a IUFOO or a ERC, can't remember which now without looking at paperwork but I bought these items earlier on this year and they were both about £35 (I think it was the lens hood). Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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