jmooney Posted September 3, 2011 Share #1 Posted September 3, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm looking to buy another Leica and I'm a little confused. I tried doing some research in books and on various websites and and I'm still confused about the exact model designation of what I'm looking for. I think I want a Model A also known as the "hockey stick" Leica. The black one with the non-removable lens. I see referred to as "A" or a "I" perhaps sometimes a "Standard" too. Can someone clear up the correct name for this camera? Any tips on where to locate one? I'm going to use it so I'm not looking for collector grade, just a functioning camera. Thanks for shedding some light on this for a confused Leica fanatic. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 Hi jmooney, Take a look here What kind of Leica am I looking for?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ezc203 Posted September 3, 2011 Share #2 Posted September 3, 2011 The Forum has a WIKI section for stuff like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmooney Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted September 3, 2011 Nevermind, someone on another forum was kind enough to explain it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted September 3, 2011 Share #4 Posted September 3, 2011 Hello Jim & Eddie, Welcome to writing on the Forum Jim. I see from your join date you have been here for a while. What Eddie said above is certainly correct. There are a lot of people who would not only benefit but who would be pleasantly surprised @ the ammount & quality of the information in the wiki @ the top of every page. People can also benefit by clicking & reading the Stickys @ the top of many specialized Forums such as the Historical Forum. The question you asked is more complex than it might seem. The Leica "Model A" is the same as a "Leica 1". 2 names. Same camera. Woodchuck - Groundhog. "Leica Standard" is the same as a "Model E" & cosmetically similar to an "A" but none the less different because the "Standard" takes interchangable lenses adjusted to a standardized back focus. the "Standard" is the sucessor to the "Leica 1 Interchangable" also known as "Model C" which is like the "E" but w/ interchangable lenses which are not standardized like they are on a "Standard". Not to be confused w/ a "Ic" which is sort of like............ This goes on for ever. Welcome to researching the World of Leitz/Leica. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 3, 2011 Share #5 Posted September 3, 2011 Nevermind, someone on another forum was kind enough to explain it. Good.. but, to re-establish the preminence of OUR forum... I add some advice-info : - Leica I (=model A in USA) had many small variants, and was built in thousands with the Elmar (56.500 around) , in small numbers with Hektor (1330) and even less with Anstigmat (5 elemetns lens - 144) and Elmax (=Elmar - 713) : the last two are rare collectibles, the Hektor version is rather underrated , though uncommon. - The Elmar version was made in two different minimum focusing distances : 3 and 1,5 feet, the latter rather uncommon and desirable. - Conditions may vary in a VERY broad range : being a finely maintanable camera, restoration to excellent cosmetics/functionality was frequent and is still possible today by some labs. - For this reason, imho is a camera that is better to acquire having the capability to see/handle/operate : a detailed description of conditions cannot be compared to the feeling of having it in your hands : luckily, is not rare (in the Elmar version, of course) and many dealers have more than one in their shops. - The 4-digits s/n bring a premium price... but conditions indeed command the value. - If the camera has been maintained, this is nothing bad, but verifying the originality can be very difficult... many small parts could have been "outsourced" or even hand-made. - An original proper leather bag is a nice to have addon, not easy to find in good conditions. Chasing for a Leica I and finding an item that finally does SATISFY you is a pleasant task in itself... ... "no hurry" is the golden rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted September 3, 2011 Share #6 Posted September 3, 2011 Hello, may be looking at my website can help you just click on the link under my signature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 4, 2011 Share #7 Posted September 4, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) 'The Leica Pocket Book' 7th Edition should tell you all you need to know about the Leica I Model A . If you plan to buy one beware of repainted examples - and examine the lens' front element for signs of scratches and polishing. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 5, 2011 Share #8 Posted September 5, 2011 - The Elmar version was made in two different minimum focusing distances : 3 and 1,5 feet, the latter rather uncommon and desirable. - Conditions may vary in a VERY broad range : being a finely maintanable camera, restoration to excellent cosmetics/functionality was frequent and is still possible today by some labs. - The 4-digits s/n bring a premium price... but conditions indeed command the value. Hi Luigi I was wondering about this, too. How rare, would you say, is the Leica I (A) with Elmar in the 1,5 feet version? What about 5-digit serials in the 50xxx range? Some of these cameras are naturally in a very bad state. Is value affected (positively or negatively) by competent restoration? Cheerio Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 5, 2011 Share #9 Posted September 5, 2011 Any tips on where to locate one? Hi Jim Check for instance Red Dot Cameras - they have a few in stock, plus other Barnack cameras. Good luck Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 5, 2011 Share #10 Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Luigi I was wondering about this, too. How rare, would you say, is the Leica I (A) with Elmar in the 1,5 feet version? What about 5-digit serials in the 50xxx range? Some of these cameras are naturally in a very bad state. Is value affected (positively or negatively) by competent restoration? Cheerio Philip Regarding 'competent restoration'. Unlike eg classic and vintage cars which are frequently fully rebuilt/restored and resprayed and then sold for top $$ prices, fully restored classic cameras, particularly black painted Leica models, seem to be frowned on by collectors. Internal mechanical restorations are acceptable but beware of eg shiny new paintwork. 'New looking' Leica I Model A cameras exist and they can be priced exorbitantly - I could even have a good guess as to who occasionally 'makes' these in London. When I saw one on offer at Photographica it sat there all day and nobody fell for it. Most serious collectors normally/usually only acquire 'original' examples ie cameras with original paintwork - and better condition original paintwork commands a better price. Many old Leica I Model A cameras have been partially repainted by their previous owners and their poorly applied paintwork tends to look rather sloppy and amateurish - and their prices reflect their 'looks'. Replaced vulcanite/body covering is another 'tell tale' sign of a restored camera. Another reason that collectors avoid eg repainted Leica I Model A cameras is that the original serial number 'infill' may have been stripped out or destroyed in the repainting process - and then it might be easy for an opportunist restorer to substitute a 4 digit serial number for an original 5 figure number - even though the four figure number will seldom look genuine to an experienced eye. 'Body furniture' also needs checking to make sure it is contemporary with the camera - especially with earlier cameras - but also bear in mind that Leitz may have replaced external parts when the camera was serviced. If you only want a 'user' and are not too bothered about cosmetic condition and 'repaints' and fully original external parts there are some bargain buy Leica I Model A cameras (Elmar models) about - but bear in mind that over 50K were made so they are not scarce and depending on the dealer/seller can be quite affordable. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 5, 2011 Share #11 Posted September 5, 2011 Many old Leica I Model A cameras have been partially repainted by their previous owners and their poorly applied paintwork tends to look rather sloppy and amateurish - and their prices reflect their 'looks'. What's the view on the following bodies (and apologies for veering off-topic slightly by including II and III models too), in particular those in "very clean" condition? In case it assists, the serials are (top to bottom) 61972, 73033, 25443, 98471 and 11151. cheers philip Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/160937-what-kind-of-leica-am-i-looking-for/?do=findComment&comment=1785279'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 5, 2011 Share #12 Posted September 5, 2011 That top one looks to be in interesting shape... probably not repainted by 3rd parties, with accessory Rangefinder and with a "11 o'clock" Elmar (marked "50MM"... probably contemprary of the camera)... as you surely know, is not a Leica I model A but a I model C - interchangable lens - apparently with standard mount (from the s/n it ought to be, indeed, a standard mount one). The 3rd from top is a model A... worn and with the finder that probably has been replaced... The 3 models with Rangefinder are even TOO fine in paint... but I can't tell you if they have been repainted by 3rd parties... if the work is well done, difficult to discover it looking at pictures... . The second from top (73.xxx) belongs to the first batch of Leica II (so as the fourth - 98.xxx)... interesting, but was by far the biggest batch of Leica II... around 30.000 items... The last is, in a certain sense, very interesting for is a "factory conversion" : 11.151 used to be a Leica I model A... and clearly the depicted item is a RF coupled with slow times an top speed 1/500... say, a model III. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 5, 2011 Share #13 Posted September 5, 2011 The Leica IA looks very rough - the vulcanite looks fragile - but if I was looking for a 'USER' IA and this one was offered in good functional order and the price was right then I'd consider buying it. But I would not pay a high price ... unless it had some interesting genuine provenance. The IC I might consider if it's a standard mount - the paint looks original. The second and fourth 'shiny paint' examples I'd probably not consider as they look as though they might have been repainted - but I'd need to look at them to be sure. The 1928? Leica I converted to a Leica III is, as Luigi states, an interesting camera - but it too looks 'a bit too good' in the paintwork - however, everything has a price and I'd like to handle it to see the paint close-up. . As I'm a little unsure about prices of 'factory conversion' Leica cameras - I'd probably have to check out a well known auction site and access their previous sale details for something similar ... and make allowances for the hammer premium and whether prices in general that day were high or low. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted September 5, 2011 Share #14 Posted September 5, 2011 "The second from top (73.xxx) belongs to the first batch of Leica II " correct, however top cover must have been replaced later, presumably after 1936. This could explain pretty good condition of paint jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 6, 2011 Share #15 Posted September 6, 2011 The last is, in a certain sense, very interesting for is a "factory conversion" : 11.151 used to be a Leica I model A... and clearly the depicted item is a RF coupled with slow times an top speed 1/500... say, a model III. Thank you very much Luigi. What do you think about the vulcanite on the last one (and I know pictures may "lie") - it looks much "rougher" than the other ones. Is that perhaps a modern addition? The Leica IA looks very rough - the vulcanite looks fragile - but if I was looking for a 'USER' IA and this one was offered in good functional order and the price was right then I'd consider buying it. But I would not pay a high price ... unless it had some interesting genuine provenance. What would be a good price for such a worn-down camera, assuming that there's no interesting provenance (ie just an ordinary camera)? (...) The 1928? Leica I converted to a Leica III is, as Luigi states, an interesting camera - but it too looks 'a bit too good' in the paintwork - however, everything has a price and I'd like to handle it to see the paint close-up. . As I'm a little unsure about prices of 'factory conversion' Leica cameras - I'd probably have to check out a well known auction site and access their previous sale details for something similar ... and make allowances for the hammer premium and whether prices in general that day were high or low. I've tried to find out what converted Is go for at auctions but it isn't too easy. Christie's sold one in 1995 for 214£ incl premium. In October 2009, Swedish auction site LPfoto(.se) sold a Leica I > II conversion for the equivalent of 300€ (excl 20% premium). Thanks for your replies. Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 6, 2011 Share #16 Posted September 6, 2011 What would be a good price for such a worn-down camera, assuming that there's no interesting provenance (ie just an ordinary camera)? Philip The IA must have a cost in a low range... I'd say under 200€... take this as a good reference : Newoldcamera - Scheda prodotto Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 6, 2011 Share #17 Posted September 6, 2011 What would be a good price for such a worn-down camera, assuming that there's no interesting provenance (ie just an ordinary camera)? (...) Thanks for your replies. Philip We cannot give exact valuations . You should maybe consider what the camera is worth to you by eg applying a % to a better condition priced example ... maybe 50% of the usual " €'x'-hundred" asking price? Recovering such a camera could be a relatively easy DIY job if you have a scalpel, a ruler, an old wallet (to recycle the thin leather), some double sided tape and a screwdriver to remove the 'hockey stick'. Do not remove the lens mount as the flange is mounted on top of the original vulcanite and the thickness of that vulcanite contributes to the focus. You can cut and fit the replacement covering around the flange. You need not remove the four screws on the front of the camera - with care you can make some holes in the replacement covering to give access to these screws .. or you could cover over the screws with the replacement covering. And it's an easy matter to paint the viewfinder to make it look a bit more presentable. These suggestions assume that the camera is in working order - and that you will be happy using what will become a non-original condition and recovered camera. Check Westlicht Auctions for their previous sales' prices of these models. dunk EDIT: I've just noticed that the Leica IA has strap lugs; I'm not sure if these would have been originally fitted at the time of manufacture - they might be a later Leitz 'factory addition' when the camera was serviced? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 6, 2011 Share #18 Posted September 6, 2011 Thank you very much for the replies. I agree -- the value of things such as these is very much a subjective matter and up to what one is willing to pay. I only meant a "between the thumb and the index finger" guess as to what they could/should cost objectively speaking. It does seem that many cameras I've seen on Newoldcamera, Red Dot etc are in the ranges of a 2-400€, sometimes with lens included. And thank you also, Dunk, for the very interesting and useful information on how to restore the covering on the I A. Very interesting indeed. I'm not a collector but look for a camera to use. Looks are not very important provided the camera is mechanically and optically in good working order. Sounds silly perhaps, but it would offer me great pleasure to be able to use a camera regularly that hopefully will reach 100 during my lifetime and use. It would naturally add to the satisfaction to have restored one's camera oneself I will think about this Leica I. Cheerio Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 6, 2011 Share #19 Posted September 6, 2011 I recently recovered a SLR camera for someone which was a more complex shape than the Leica IA ... after making a paper covering as a pattern I then cut up an old leather wallet using the pattern and attched it to the body using carpet backing grade, double sided tape which is much easier and cleaner to use than adhesive. Best to cut the pattern and the leather with a scalpel or any similar pointed blade modelling knife. But this method needs an accurately shaped/cut paper pattern ... once you have that and transfer it , the accuracy of the leather covering is ensured. You might find that the strap lugs get in the way of the pattern but it's relatively easy to cut a series of short 'radii' in the pattern at the lug position with a pointed scalpel so that it slips over the lugs ... and cut similar radii in the leather. And similar radii at the circumference of the lens flange will ensure a snug fitaround the lens mount. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmooney Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted September 6, 2011 Thank you all for the wonderful information and sharing pictures. I think this forum will become a new favorite place! Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.