wattsy Posted May 25, 2012 Share #21 Posted May 25, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I must admit I haven't had any problems with my original M9 charger (from October 2009) – it charges my M9 (and old M8) batteries fine every time. The only 'incident' I've had was when I used the car cigarette lighter attachment and charged a battery whilst driving to a shoot location. The very next day my car wouldn't start and it turned out my car battery was dead (not just flat but dead). Surely an unrelated coincidence but I don't think I'll charge an M9 battery this way again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 Hi wattsy, Take a look here M9 Charger died. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
StephenPatterson Posted May 25, 2012 Share #22 Posted May 25, 2012 all chargers die? Not in my experience. Just about every charger I have owned has outlived the device it works for... The Leica ones seem particularly prone to an early death... I did not say "all chargers die". What I said was "all chargers can and do occasionally fail". If you don't travel outside of, shall we say, nations with a more developed electrical infrastructure, then this may never be a problem, but in other parts of the world where the electric supply is more erratic a voltage spike or inrush current surge can take out any camera battery charger. The Leica chargers are no more prone to early death than any other manufacturer's chargers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted May 25, 2012 Share #23 Posted May 25, 2012 My M9 charger was also DOA when I unpacked it 20 months ago. I kept using my M8 brick (as Jaap called it) without problem, but it went away with the sale of my M8 kit. I was able to make the M9 unit work with its car charger, but having grown tired of that solution, I asked Leica NJ for a complete exchange. They readily agreed, and I await my new charger as I post this message. I always thought I had just pulled an odd lot. Unfortunately, it sounds as though Leica's charger supplier is hardly worthy... just like the M9 paint finish is well below Leica's past standards. Well, at least all of the new lenses (hence, the images) are magnificent! Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrovner Posted May 26, 2012 Share #24 Posted May 26, 2012 I see that B&H Photo sells a compact Leica charger for $149.50, but advertises it as only designed for the M8 and M8.2. Here's the link. Any idea if this will work with M9 batteries also? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 26, 2012 Share #25 Posted May 26, 2012 Yes, the M8/M8.2 and M9 use the same battery and can also use any charger designed for that battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #26 Posted May 26, 2012 The Leica chargers are no more prone to early death than any other manufacturer's chargers. Probably because all brands' chargers are supplied by (the same?) outside manufacturers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 26, 2012 Share #27 Posted May 26, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I seriously doubt that claim and wonder what it is based on? I have owned countless non-Leica chargers and none have failed. I have owned 3 Leica chargers and 2 out of 3 are faulty? There are many reports of the M9 charger failing- here and elsewhere. Even if all chargers came from the same supplier (which I doubt) I would suggest they are not all of the same standard. To a degree with these types of things: You get what you pay for- and if you don't you (should) go elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #28 Posted May 26, 2012 Ansmann is a very reputable company - and all chargers I know have " made in China " on them I have ( had) four M chargers and eight assorted other Leica chargers. None of them have failed which proves exactly as much as your two broken ones - nothing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 26, 2012 Share #29 Posted May 26, 2012 I doesn't tell us nothing: it tells us that of our test group of seven we have a very alarming rate of 28% failure... this could be merely a coincidence- but for any serious manufacturer it would be a cause for concern- and a reason to contact the supplier. And what of the claim I challenged: what is it based on? Desire, theology, astrology- or access to the actual Leica service factory records? It is poor logic to note that 'all chargers may fail' and 'all chargers come from the same place' therefore: The Leica chargers are no more prone to early death than any other manufacturer's chargers. When you then use this sloppy logic to over-ride anecdotal evidence of premature failure you go a step beyond what is sensible. Finally even if they were as prone to death as any other: why do Leica accept the status quo? Their chargers seem to cost more than anyone else's- why are they no better? And I don't buy the 'limited run explanation': 10,000 units should be able to get pretty good pricing if you ask me- let alone (maybe) 50,000 over 5 years? These are considerable numbers- and there are plenty of companies that would jump at the chance to offer the product I am sure. And to conclude: the reality is- I think we would be surprised if we actually knew what Leica's currently pays for these units. My guess is less than $10 a piece (judging by the poor quality). Yesterday I got a quote for 1000 units of a household water pump system for filtered water- it can retail for between 140 and 250 USD. The unit price @ 1000 units was $35. This is a price with no further commitment- just 1000 pieces. This pump is far more sophisticated than a battery charger- and contains many more components- many of which must be made from food grade materials. It is electrical- but deals with water- so needs a higher degree of integrity to avoid malfunction. It is an unusual item and is not made in massive numbers. If I ordered 10,000 with a commitment to another 10,000 next year- I believe I could get the price down to 18$ or less per unit. you mentioned yourself Jaap that the insides of the M8 charger looked like they were soldered by a child.... And it seems to have a far higher success rate than the m9 charger... The point is: if Leica said to their supplier "we want quality over price (within reason)"- they would get it. I am thinking they chose another route with this device.... Now- if I was being Really Cynical I would suggest thinking along these lines. If it is poorly made and cheap: if it fails Under Warranty- no great loss- it costs a few dollars to replace and is light and easy to post. If it fails Out of Warranty: a replacement can be sold at high profit ;-) sound economic and businesslike thinking... If you make it to last- it will cost more- and will not fail out of warranty as much :-( where's the end of year bonus in that idea? Time was when manufacturers considered other factors- like reputation and quality- perhaps with more weight. These days it seems to be enough to say you have quality for people to accept it (despite evidence to the contrary). We should not be lazy- we should keep them on their toes- lets call a dud a dud and a lemon a lemon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #30 Posted May 26, 2012 My maths tell me two out of 19, just over ten percent - still no fact, just a case history... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 26, 2012 Share #31 Posted May 26, 2012 we can't include your non- m8/m9 chargers in this comparison- any more than we can include m3 failures in an examination of m2 failures. And even if we did: 10% is too high:p We are looking at the newer M9 charger here- not Leica chargers in general. So if we actually remove your M8 brick charger (I assume at least one of your 4 was like that?) from your original figures we have a new sample failure rate of 33.3% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted May 26, 2012 Share #32 Posted May 26, 2012 A Leica User Forum thread with the title of "M9 Charger died" is hardly a random sample, and is more than likely heavily skewed toward negative results rendering any statistical analysis completely meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 26, 2012 Share #33 Posted May 26, 2012 I would love to let this lie- to be honest I started in this thread only mentioning the facts from my own experience 2 out of 3 chargers are defective. One was replaced- another is going back shortly. 66% failure rate over an average of 12 months testing per unit... Of course I could be VERY unlucky... If the failure rate is just 1%- I guess I could have lost two races out of three where I was the 100 to 1 favorite- it's remotely possible... But as you are continuing with an analysis of statistics- you didn't answer my question? On what did you base you statement that leica chargers are no more likely to fail than others? The statement was pretty clear and sweeping- yet it was/is not backed up. By way of reply you have suggested that the sample on this thread is meaningless and skewed. I would say (at the least) it is less meaningless than your broad claim... As you probably know-a search of the forum reveals that this is not an isolated thread. There have been many reports (and for every reported instance- unreported ones- I simply cannot believe that every Leica M failure is covered on this forum- whether it be chargers or sensors). In my own case I had to wait for 12 weeks (from memory) for a replacement. At the time my dealer told me they had already replaced quite a few- hence the delay. Don't get me wrong; I am not trying to bash Leica here- just reacting to your statements. I fear however that I am getting you wrong: it seems to me sometimes that you defend more for the 'valour of the brand' rather than for empirical reasons... Lets face it: the charger feels cheap, is of a poor design, prone to failure (exact rate unknown) and lacking in the functionality and quality that we may have expected from a $7000 camera? I am sure we can agree on that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted May 26, 2012 Share #34 Posted May 26, 2012 Lets face it: the charger feels cheap, is of a poor design, prone to failure (exact rate unknown) and lacking in the functionality and quality that we may have expected from a $7000 camera? I am sure we can agree on that? Jaques, I am not looking for a fight, and I think it's really unfortunate that you have had two charger failures. I have owned four (two with my M8.2 and two now), and have never had a failure. I do not agree that the charger is of poor design, prone to failure or lacking in functionality. 1. The Leica chargers I believe are assembled in China. While Jaap observed that someone has disassembled a charger and found "it looked like a 12 year old with his first soldering iron" in actuality what you are seeing is point to point through hole component assembly, a technique which is widely used to transfer more current than what would be possible on a printed circuit board trace. It is a time proven technique, used by NASA and many military contractors. 2. There is no reason, from a quality standpoint, not to build the chargers in China. Building them in Germany would not guarantee a lesser failure rate (given the same design), but it would certainly equate to a much more expensive charger. 3. I have visited numerous charger factories in China, and they tend to specialize on this one aspect of the business. They source components by the millions, are routinely inspected by their OEM customers for adherence to engineering drawings and proper bills of materials, and by and large do not cut corners to save a few jiao. IMHO. Jaques, I believe in order for Leica to give you what you want, namely a zero defect charger, would require a transformer of such enormous size and capacity that it would dwarf the so called M8 "brick". The M9 charger I believe is a balance between customer wishes for a small size and Leica engineering dept. requirements for voltage and current limits. The only solution, if being without a charger is an unacceptable option, is to purchase redundancy and have a back up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 26, 2012 Share #35 Posted May 26, 2012 I have also visited many factories in Asia, and have products manufactured for me in some of them. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with 'made in China' and I am not suggesting these items be made in Germany... I do however understand well that price is closely related to quality. You can make the same device with the best components- or the second best- or third best- etc. If you want the item cheap the manufacturer has to save money somehow...and you get what you pay for. Whilst there may be a general standard in the factories you have visited: I would hazard a guess that it may be on the low side... As you say quality soldering is very reliable- and thicker wires last longer. In the old days electronic components were often designed to last far longer than their modern counterparts. I use a 1962 coffee machine that still works flawlessly with original wiring. I would love to believe that this charger was designed through a process of balancing customer desires and engineering requirements. But I believe there is a cost element involved... that works against some customer desires... (I desire it to be dependable you see...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLS Posted May 26, 2012 Share #36 Posted May 26, 2012 Mine (An Mann 9994025) works but I am taking TWO on trip to China.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted May 26, 2012 Share #37 Posted May 26, 2012 Jaques, Jaap et al.... Of course we are analyzing anything but a random sample. If we are reading threads like this, we are self-selecting to be outspoken at the least vs. the population of Leica M battery operators, . But the point is not whether Leica chargers are no less reliable than other companies (like my Nikon D1X charger that failed). Leica sells its fixed viewfinder for $750!!! Leica represents that all of its photo gear is at the highest level of quality and charges unmatched prices in return. Leica should be embarrassed that the chargers they supply are below the standards of their fancy all-metal patented screw-in lens shades. Apple chargers are reliable, so maybe Dr. Kaufmann can ask his accountants to call up Foxconn and get its advice on charger assembly? To put my view another way, Leica is German and alle muss in Ordnung sein. When the door handle breaks on a Ferrari 458 (which is nevertheless equivalent in performance to a 911), one expects such an oversight. --please take this as humorous-- Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 26, 2012 Share #38 Posted May 26, 2012 I wonder if there is any correlation of failures used in 110V/60 cycle or 220V/50 cycle systems, or 9V DC? I have a charging pod in the back of my vehicle that has 110V/60 and 9V ports, and so far none of the three chargers have had a problem. An engineer could probably inform me, but I once lived in rural Ohio where we had wretched electrical service. Besides completely failing to black-outs, we experienced a lot of computer problems due to low voltage. UPS units were expensive then. So, could poor electrical control be responsible for some failures? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 26, 2012 Share #39 Posted May 26, 2012 Usually chargers get killed by power surges, reason I normally carry a couple, especially into third world countries, although I need surge protectors at home due to the proximity of one of Europe's main refinery areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted May 26, 2012 Share #40 Posted May 26, 2012 FWIW I have bought 2 Delkin universal chargers and they are brilliant and much cheaper than the Leica ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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