AlanG Posted July 28, 2011 Share #161 Posted July 28, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I just did a wildlife workshop and not one AF system could catch a Saker Falcon striking at 300 kph. The M9 could as only camera:) , but the bird was totally speed-blurred.... All AF systems have limits but are steadily improving in their tracking ability and speed. Of course this is harder if the subject is not filling much of the frame unless there can be some artificial intelligence at work. (Such as face and smile detect.) Why couldn't you pre-focus any camera on the intended target and shoot at a high enough frame rate and shutter speed to get what you want? Years ago Peter B. Kaplan used a Hycam high speed film camera to shoot a rattlesnake strike in order to get a good still sequence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Stefan Daniel: New M and APS-C soon?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 28, 2011 Share #162 Posted July 28, 2011 I did prefocus my M9 but it still needed focus corrections (tap left tap right) The M9 worked due to no shutter lag and seeing the bird coming outside the frame . I didn't need machinegunning. I don't know what the Canikon crowd did, presumably they tried to follow-autofocus but failed predictably. As for shutterspeed, it was raining heavily and the light had gone... I had an unfair advantage too - they were using huge zooms, and I put on a 90 and walked closer to the pigeon-swinging bloke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 28, 2011 Share #163 Posted July 28, 2011 I did prefocus my M9 but it still needed focus corrections (tap left tap right) The M9 worked due to no shutter lag and seeing the bird coming outside the frame . I didn't need machinegunning. I don't know what the Canikon crowd did, presumably they tried to follow-autofocus but failed predictably. As for shutterspeed, it was raining heavily and the light had gone...I had an unfair advantage too - they were using huge zooms, and I put on a 90 and walked closer to the pigeon-swinging bloke Shooting action is a skill with any camera. I used to shoot race cars in the 70s with long lenses and the current gear makes it much easier. Although it is not my field, I sometimes get assignments where I have to shoot sports or action with long lenses and I feel I can do it pretty well. Those other photographers in your workshop probably need to do some practicing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted July 28, 2011 Share #164 Posted July 28, 2011 [*]I also believe that I've wasted too much of my life explaining myself in this thread and on this forum. Adios. I hope you don't give up on the forum altogether. I, for one, value your insight and the knowledge you have added to many threads. I hope you stay. RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted July 29, 2011 Share #165 Posted July 29, 2011 I just did a wildlife workshop and not one AF system could catch a Saker Falcon striking at 300 kph. The M9 could as only camera:) , but the bird was totally speed-blurred.... Jaap, not the AF systems couldn't catch the speedy falcon - the shooters couldn't ;-) I cannot speak for other manufacturer's cameras, but the Nikon D3, paired with a professional grade, adequate AF lens is pretty spectacular, when it comes to AF tracking and AF speed. This is a photograph of Jenson Button, entering the braking zone for corner 1 at the Chinese F1 GP in 2010. Top speeds on that straight are well in excess of 300 km/h, while here, he still is at about 250km/h. Mind you, I started tracking his helmet a few split seconds before this, when he still was well over 300km/h. To make things not easy, I used a 300mm prime with TC, handheld, to get cockpit shots from this angle. You can read his steering wheel display in the actual 30" print btw ;-) Regarding your issue of having blurred shots with the M9 and 90mm + speedy falcon, I can tell you, that your scenario wasn't as easy, as you described (similar to this F1 car in the braking zone actually). If you shot the bird, while he was braking down to the ground, you deal with constantly changing speeds of the bird due to deceleration, making panning pretty difficult. "Jenson Button - McLaren Mercedes - 2010" bigger on flickr Nikon D3 | 300/2.8 VR | TC17 As a side note - the shot is done at ISO800 (you can see, it was a full wet race, raining the whole afternoon with light for higher ISO speeds, wide open lenses and slow shutter speeds) - there is zero noise in the image, while the D3 was exposed the constant rain (not just a drizzle) for about three hours with zero issues. The expensive 300 VR has been wrapped with a trash bag + tape, as I didn't felt adventurous, although it is a weather sealed lens. I really still hope for the day, when Leica gets back in the game and I can use a R10 with 400/2.8 APO Telyt AF on par with the then sold Nikon D7 I am serious, if Leica will offer a sports shooter DSLR, I will not think twice. At the moment, I do motor sports with the Leica M, but have to brake out the heavy Nikon gear, when I need more reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 29, 2011 Share #166 Posted July 29, 2011 When business for Leica goes equally well over the next year, they will have generated a profit of over 100M$ within three years! What about reinvesting this money into the Leitz-Park II and creating a state-of-the-art production facility for next-gen Leicas instead of giving all the know-how and resources to a direct competitor? Within 300km range there are hundreds of suppliers and specialists capable of designing and manufacturing all the components needed for a digital imaging system: Unique mold-makers, specialists for any kind of metal and metal-processing method, batteries that work for over 3000 cycles, electric/piezo drive systems capable of several G acceleraion and a positioning tolerance of less than 0.1µm... Everything is there - it just has to be reactivated for the use in a "consumer-product" (selling about 20000-50000 5000€ bodies is not exactly low-volume-production, either...). The most difficult thing would be finding a fab willing to manufacture a CMOS-imaging-sensor, but they can start step by step. Of course it's not the most convenient solution, but they played it simple for too long (Minolta-based-cameras, Fuji, Panasonic...), it's time to offer a unique body besides unique lenses. Cramping standard-electronics into a body with a red dot is not enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 29, 2011 Share #167 Posted July 29, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Georg, Leica Camera already has management and I dare say a plan for the future. The new Leitz Park clearly is part of their future and development has been underway for some time. There's no suggestion at all that they are 'giving all of the know how and resources to a direct competitor'. I can't imagine that developing a new facility to manufacture sensors would be economically sensible. Stefan Daniel already said that there are no suppliers in Germany that they can use. You can't just wish this stuff into existence because it sounds like a good idea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2011 Share #168 Posted July 30, 2011 When business for Leica goes equally well over the next year, they will have generated a profit of over 100M$ within three years! What about reinvesting this money into the Leitz-Park II and creating a state-of-the-art production facility for next-gen Leicas instead of giving all the know-how and resources to a direct competitor? Within 300km range there are hundreds of suppliers and specialists capable of designing and manufacturing all the components needed for a digital imaging system:Unique mold-makers, specialists for any kind of metal and metal-processing method, batteries that work for over 3000 cycles, electric/piezo drive systems capable of several G acceleraion and a positioning tolerance of less than 0.1µm... Everything is there - it just has to be reactivated for the use in a "consumer-product" (selling about 20000-50000 5000€ bodies is not exactly low-volume-production, either...). The most difficult thing would be finding a fab willing to manufacture a CMOS-imaging-sensor, but they can start step by step. Of course it's not the most convenient solution, but they played it simple for too long (Minolta-based-cameras, Fuji, Panasonic...), it's time to offer a unique body besides unique lenses. Cramping standard-electronics into a body with a red dot is not enough. Leica has experience with spending money this way. When the company went publc thet spent the money gained on the R8 and R9 development to get away from the Minolta involvement in the R series. Superb cameras, but they did not sell and the money evaporated, killing of the company until Dr. Kaufmann saved it in the last second. I think repeatng the scenario is not on the agenda of the present management. I'm sure they will continue the present course, with the move to the new production facilty aa the main challenge. It must be a very complicated operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 30, 2011 Share #169 Posted July 30, 2011 The decision to cut-off from Minolta and develop a new camera was important - they just took the wrong way to finance it (selling the company!) and put it into a system that has never been successul. They should not build their own semiconductor-fab, they don't operate efficiently at these output-levels. There are top-notch fabs nearby. They should not develop a sensor or other integrated circuits from scratch in the very beginning, either - but they have to decide whether they want to evolve from someone who just assembles cameras to someone who could step forward with a unique solution to the next-gen EVF-mirrorless-systems. What they're looking for right now are suppliers that give them finished "off-the-shelf"-solutions that have been developed for other camera-systems as well - what about convincing surrounding high-tech suppliers to adapt their technologies for Leica with serious R&D from Leica as well? I'm not sure if this is what they actually have done with the central shutter and AF-system of the S-System, but just assembling off-the-shelf-components like in the X1 is not a long-term strategy - it's just cheap. Just look what Arnold&Richter (yes the CEO of Leica was CEO of ARRI) has achieved with the ALEXA, it's a completely custom-designed digital camera system including an EVF - the sensor is made by Cypress (although the development and I think even the QC directly from the wafer is done in-house and nearby), it's currently redefining digital cinematography with unique reliability, robustness, ease-of-use and image-quality. Has it more megapixels than anyone else? No. Does it have more bells and whistles? No. It's just a worktool designed and manufactured close to perfection. The big competitor of ARRI, Panavision, wanted to "focus on core-competences" and bought the internals of ther digital 1st gen system from Sony - now Sony is making the money and they have to start all over... I don't get it how ARRI can use their specific know-how (no, their not as big as Sony, they are sufficiently big, that's the point) to surpass Sony (they want to come up with a new-gen camera later, much later while the ALEXA is on-set for one year) and offer a superior-product and 300km further they still hope they can re-brand Sony-technology (or Panasonic...) instead of cooperating with companies that are like Leica and not competitors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2011 Share #170 Posted July 30, 2011 What they're looking for right now are suppliers that give them finished "off-the-shelf"-solutions that have been developed for other camera-systems as well - what about convincing surrounding high-tech suppliers to adapt their technologies for Leica with serious R&D from Leica as well? are you actually suggesting they buy components from experts like Copal,Kodak,Jenoptic Uwe Weller, etc? Unthinkable!!!I'm not sure if this is what they actually have done with the central shutter and AF-system of the S-System, well, they did do the complete R&D of exactly those components because their specifications were unavailable on the market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 30, 2011 Share #171 Posted July 30, 2011 I think this time (future EVIL-systems capable of adapting all existing lenses, having-made profit) is crucial for Leica - the management (or Mr. Kaufmannn himself) has to decide about the fate of Leica as a company: Do they want to continue as a pure optical specialist or do they take this unique chance (as far as we know, C/N are far away from replacing their pro-systems with a EVIL) to progress in camera technology? They're not meant to build or design a digital camera completely on their own, it took ARRI three generations of digital technology and ten years to come up with the ALEXA, but it would be a good (the last?) opportunity to slowly evolve into more independence from Japanese consumer electronics by setting the course now. Maybe they partner with ARRI, buying a LCOS-display and developing a new optical system for the EVF, sharing the sensor-architecture with their future cine-cams - they're no competitors and yet, they're strikingly alike in several areas. Try to do this if you get the chance: take a look through the EVF of the ALEXA and then compare it to the ones used by professional Panasonic or Sony-cameras (sometimes twice as expensive!) - will make you wonder where the billions of $ were spent... Buying the EVF from Panasonic or Sony for the Leica-EVIL is a good idea? But the most important part: the camera would be unique, the images, the EVF - maybe not everything would be superior to mass-market-solutions, but better adapted to their needs (right now, they cannot even find a suppplier for high-res LCDs! Athough, this specific part is hard to find outside consumer-electronics) and not replaceable with a 500$-camera which uses the same sensor... They use cheap consumer battery technology, while the local automotive industry is ramping up production of Li-Po-cells with superior performance (3000 cycles).... The nearby mechanical industry is capable of delivering high precision bearings and direct drives for future AF-lenses - no need to ask Panasonic for a favor... They can use Japanese suppliers when they want, but it would be wise not to use the leftovers of direct competition. As far as we know, the X1 doesn't include any components from Weller (the shutter dial?) or JenoptiK, it's just "pieced-together from leftovers" (I shriek everytime I see the battery door alone) from the mass-market. Not even the lens shares the finemechanics from Leica-lenses. They had the idea to come up with a APS-C-compact-camera - great. They didn't have the resources to pull it off at that time - I understand that. But don't dare to recycle that concept on the Leica-EVIL! When they just want to re-brand cameras from Panasonic or Sony and sharing nearly all the underlying technology, I save money by buying it directly from these manufacturers and invest my money into adapted Leica-lenses - I have no need for the red dot, I have a need for a serious alternative to the mass-produced consumer-market only caring about the wishes and needs of the vast (often stupid "plastic mega-zoom") majority.. Am I the only one? We're talking about a camera (judging from the M9) that could be sold 10000-30000 pieces a year, 5000-8000$ each, that allows for more than just off-the-shelf-solutions - it could change the fate of Leica for a very long time. And we would get a very good tool for photography with various lenses. Look at Porsche or Apple, they conquered the markets with unique and sometimes odd products. Thousands of so-called economic specialists and consultants would call a rear boxer engine or a machined notebook-housing "economic shenanigans" and they would proof it with studies about cost-savings possible by using off-the-shelf-solutions, and yet, they would completely miss the point. What Leica needs is a persistent vision, somebody capable thinking out-of-the-box from a long-term-perspective - not the most attractive and profitable solution for shareholders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 30, 2011 Share #172 Posted July 30, 2011 Surely you haven't forgotten that the "rear boxer engine" was an off-the-shelf solution, along with the transmission, chassis and running gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
janki Posted July 30, 2011 Share #173 Posted July 30, 2011 Hi Geoff Hopkinson (Hoppyman)! It is truly an impressive translation you and your French photographer friend have made.:) I feel in many ways that we are left with just as many questions as answers after reading through this interview. In the photo-industry it is currently very popular with so-called road maps. On the basis of the interview with Stefan Daniel, I have had some fun making my version of Leica's road map in terms of future camera systems with interchangeable lenses. This is, of course, meant absolutely informal. Others have perhaps “scientifically” a more correct interpretation. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/157030-stefan-daniel-new-m-and-aps-c-soon/?do=findComment&comment=1751694'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2011 Share #174 Posted July 30, 2011 in 2009 Leica said: the future R solution will NOT be built by Leica... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share #175 Posted July 30, 2011 Any link on this Jaap? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2011 Share #176 Posted July 30, 2011 it was reported extensively on this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share #177 Posted July 30, 2011 Never seen this so far but i may be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 30, 2011 Share #178 Posted July 30, 2011 Never seen this so far but i may be wrong. I’m afraid you are as our group effort at an exegesis of what was said back then kept us busy for several weeks if not more. Anyway, I never took that remark as something set in stone. Whatever Leica had in mind as an ‘R solution’ would by necessity have been quite vague at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2011 Share #179 Posted July 31, 2011 I agree that it is not set in stone and Leica may surprise us yet, but the longer it takes the less likely it gets. We may be thankful for M to R adapters yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share #180 Posted July 31, 2011 So nobody can point me to any statement from Leica here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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