pop Posted July 26, 2011 Share #561 Posted July 26, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) looking more and more like a programming issue. Hardware issue, actually. Circumstantial evidence: discreet mode, jpg conversion, chimping are often mentioned in the vicinity of problems with images stored on the card. Those are all operation which consume power or (in one case) which delay the consumption of power to a time when writing operations are sure to occur. Take a card with little tolerance for low or rapidly changing voltages and you get all kinds of issues. It's all circumstantial, however. And - as I said before - there might be more than one cause. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 Hi pop, Take a look here My M9 is eating SD cards [MERGED}. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted July 26, 2011 Share #562 Posted July 26, 2011 Well I would go with the 8GB cards--that's what I use--but that's also because I'm nervous... especially until Leica tells us what's going on... But I have had great success with those cards. It'll be interesting to see how they work for you. I do think they're great in the M9. Hi James (or should I use Jamie?), Thanks for your advice. There seem to be 2 different 8 GB Gold cards, namely: Panasonic 8GB SDHC Gold Series Memory Card RP-SDW08GU1K B&H Panasonic 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card RP-SDU08GU1K B&H Photo Which one do you use? The first or the second or both? Thanks again. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 26, 2011 Share #563 Posted July 26, 2011 Jamie, I am guessing that on the Panasonic cards, a voltage drop below 3.3V, could trigger an internal instruction to implement the 1.8V step down, that forms part of the SDHC/XC standard. Normally the instruction to step down has to be delivered externally. If Leica does not come up with something soon, I can see sales of Panasonic cards rocketing. Maybe it's all a conspiracy to get us all to buy cards from Leica's business partner ;-}} Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 26, 2011 Share #564 Posted July 26, 2011 Hi RM, That's an excellent strategy. Please, stick with it or you will not have much time for anything else. On the other hand, dragging up old threads with a similar problem which died a natural death from months or years ago isn't necessarily helpful either. As an outsider, it seems to me that maybe 10 members (tops) have reported a problem writing to (mainly) 16GB cards with their M9s. I haven't seen hundreds of members chiming in with a "Me too" post. Leica are aware of the problem (as some of you have advised them, whether they have acknowledged this advice or not) and they will no doubt be looking at a fix for a future FW update. Most members who have been around here for a while know how communicative Leica are about these things - i.e. not very - so they will get round to a solution in their own time as always. I am not an apologist for Leica and I am not trying to suggest that the impact of a situation that some people face isn't important, but I do think that it needs to be kept in proportion. IMO, it's very important not to overstate the problem, which is a danger if the one problem is repeated on multiple threads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 26, 2011 Share #565 Posted July 26, 2011 Big difference in price. Transcend 16GB Class 10 £14.89. Panasonic 16GB Class 10 £77.99. Sandisk Ultra I £20.34 Ultra II £39.95. All on Amazon UK. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 26, 2011 Share #566 Posted July 26, 2011 Jamie, I am guessing that on the Panasonic cards, a voltage drop below 3.3V, could trigger an internal instruction to implement the 1.8V step down, that forms part of the SDHC/XC standard. Normally the instruction to step down has to be delivered externally. If Leica does not come up with something soon, I can see sales of Panasonic cards rocketing. Maybe it's all a conspiracy to get us all to buy cards from Leica's business partner ;-}} Wilson I like the other features as well Panasonic 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card RP-SDU08GU1K B&H Photo. Got my order in. If push comes to shove, I can always use the cards in other equipment. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjm6 Posted July 26, 2011 Share #567 Posted July 26, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hardware issue, actually. Circumstantial evidence: discreet mode, jpg conversion, chimping are often mentioned in the vicinity of problems with images stored on the card. Those are all operation which consume power or (in one case) which delay the consumption of power to a time when writing operations are sure to occur. Take a card with little tolerance for low or rapidly changing voltages and you get all kinds of issues. It's all circumstantial, however. And - as I said before - there might be more than one cause. Could be hardware. I was thinking this has something to do with the timing of file transfer packets, which could be either hardware or software related. I'm not an electronics engineer, although I do have a PE, so I am somewhat technically-minded. What that does mean is I am pretty good at problem-solving. This is part of what is so frustrating for me, as many, many posts on this thread and others sound like Leica apologists, rather than real attempts to resolve the problem. We are making headway on the issue... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjm6 Posted July 26, 2011 Share #568 Posted July 26, 2011 No, I'm not trying to blame the user in the slightest! ... As I said, only Leica has all the data. Ok, my apologies... I'm not so sure that Leica has the data, which is why K-H is pushing to get some real numbers to pass to them. Regardless, I think your position on the memory cards may be a good work-around in the short term (until the cards are no longer available in that same configuration...). ---Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 26, 2011 Share #569 Posted July 26, 2011 What's the reason that SDHC standard includes the need for an external command for stepdown from 3.3 to 1.8V in the first place? Could it be to sidestep battery power drops, or is there some other reason? Same question in reverse: If a card can write data delivered at 1.8V, why not just use that voltage all the time? Why does the card also need to be able to work with 3.3V? (Or is this just to maintain compatibility with earlier generations of the SD card?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 26, 2011 Share #570 Posted July 26, 2011 Wilson, Karl-Heinz-- Just ran across an invoice from December 1999, on which I purchased a Kodak CF "Picture Card" with a size of 96MB (sic) for US$279. Times have changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 26, 2011 Share #571 Posted July 26, 2011 What's the reason that SDHC standard includes the need for an external command for stepdown from 3.3 to 1.8V in the first place? Could it be to sidestep battery power drops, or is there some other reason? Same question in reverse: If a card can write data delivered at 1.8V, why not just use that voltage all the time? Why does the card also need to be able to work with 3.3V? (Or is this just to maintain compatibility with earlier generations of the SD card?) Howard, It's required by the standard Secure Digital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote: "Electrical interface All SD card families must power-up at 3.3 volt and use 3.3 volt logic electrical interface, though SDHC and SDXC family cards can step down to 1.8 volt after receiving specific commands." Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 27, 2011 Share #572 Posted July 27, 2011 Hi James (or should I use Jamie?), Thanks for your advice. There seem to be 2 different 8 GB Gold cards, namely: Panasonic 8GB SDHC Gold Series Memory Card RP-SDW08GU1K B&H Panasonic 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card RP-SDU08GU1K B&H Photo Which one do you use? The first or the second or both? Thanks again. Best, K-H. Just to clarify, I'm using the cheaper, (I suppose older, though I only bought the 8GB a week ago!) 4 and 8 GB SDHC non-UHS Panasonic cards (that's the first one in your link). That's a nice price for them from BH, though; here they're double that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 27, 2011 Share #573 Posted July 27, 2011 Jamie, I am guessing that on the Panasonic cards, a voltage drop below 3.3V, could trigger an internal instruction to implement the 1.8V step down, that forms part of the SDHC/XC standard. Normally the instruction to step down has to be delivered externally. {snipped} Wilson, Panasonic claims they're "power off" protection (and superior garbage collection, which is important for memory like this) comes from something called a "Super Intelligent Controller". This is for the newer cards but both of them share this same feature: Panasonic releases 8GB & 16GB UHS-I SDHC cards: Digital Photography Review Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 27, 2011 Share #574 Posted July 27, 2011 What's the reason that SDHC standard includes the need for an external command for stepdown from 3.3 to 1.8V in the first place? Could it be to sidestep battery power drops, or is there some other reason? Same question in reverse: If a card can write data delivered at 1.8V, why not just use that voltage all the time? Why does the card also need to be able to work with 3.3V? (Or is this just to maintain compatibility with earlier generations of the SD card?) Howard, I have been wading through some of the SD standards history. It would seem that the 1.8V step down was incorporated at the request of certain manufacturers of devices that used SD cards. No more detail given than that. The read/write speed at 1.8v is considerably degraded to about 1/3 of normal speed. Another thing that I have got out of the habit of doing since mostly using my M9, is cleaning the SD card slot with a Rocket blower. I then squirt a bit of switch cleaner fluid (IPA would do if you don't have the proper fluid) onto an old card and insert a few times while still wet, to clean the contacts. In the early days of the M8, when lock ups and mis-writes were common, I used to do this every few months. If (and it's a big if) there is a voltage issue on the SD module, dirty contacts on the card would not help. I am going to do both my M8 and 9 today. Cannot do any harm. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 27, 2011 Share #575 Posted July 27, 2011 This entire web page Secure Digital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is fascinating to read, especially the sections Openness of standards, Compared to other flash memory formats and Digital cameras. Does anybody know whether Leica or their partner ever joined the Secure Digital Card Association? Whether they did or didn't possibly could have important ramifications for access to information - it naively seems to me. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 27, 2011 Share #576 Posted July 27, 2011 It is irrelevant whether Leica is a member - Jenoptik should be - and most likely is,as they use those cards in many other applications. And Kodak is a board member Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubs Posted July 27, 2011 Share #577 Posted July 27, 2011 Does anybody know whether Leica or their partner ever joined the Secure Digital Card Association? Whether they did or didn't possibly could have important ramifications for access to information - it naively seems to me. K-H. I just sent the association a quick email asking whether Jenoptik are or not. Maybe they are not at liberty to say, or I won't get a response, but worth a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubs Posted July 27, 2011 Share #578 Posted July 27, 2011 Wow that was quick.. They got back to me within the hour, out of office hours! They stated - while they could not comment on one particular company's status they could provide me a list with all current members of the association. https://www.sdcard.org/developers/about/member_companies/ So, it would appear Leica is a member and Jenoptik are not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 27, 2011 Share #579 Posted July 27, 2011 Wow that was quick.. They got back to me within the hour, out of office hours! They stated - while they could not comment on one particular company's status they could provide me a list with all current members of the association. https://www.sdcard.org/developers/about/member_companies/ So, it would appear Leica is a member and Jenoptik are not. WOW! That's impressive detective work. Congratulations. Again, what does Jenoptik do for Leica? NUTS! Cheers, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubs Posted July 27, 2011 Share #580 Posted July 27, 2011 WOW! That's impressive detective work. Congratulations. Again, what does Jenoptik do for Leica? NUTS! Cheers, K-H. I would have never thought to look if you had not mentioned it. I suppose this speaks volumes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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