My M9 is eating SD cards [MERGED}

[Robert_M]

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I tend to agree with K-H that a more scientific approach is needed to the problem. It seems to me that the discussion here is like addiction (or other crisis): The first step is admitting that there is a problem!

 

I have used many cards on my M9 since I tend to use the cards on a long travel excursion similar to how I'd use a roll of film. Although I download to a computer each day, I also keep the card as backup until I get home. Thus, I use many cards. Cards I have used for years on other cameras (canon) have worked fine. Sandisk (Ultra II) and Kingston. I bought some new Sandisk Ultra cards for a Spring trip and encountered problems similar to described by others here. I am 99% sure it is not the cards. Two Ultra Sandisk 8 GB cards had problems at EXACTLY the same frame/file number on the cards. Recently I had a new Sandisk Ultra 16 GB card have problems at exactly the same (file 5) time that another poster listed in another thread.

 

Before the usual responses come up, let me pre-empt with answers:

- No they are not bad cards, nor are they fake cards. All these cards are bought from big retailers. Newegg, Bestbuy, and OfficeDepot. You would have to fool some large retail buyers to pass off fakes on these big retailers. They are in a position to buy direct from Sandisk.

- Yes, the card contacts are clean. I even know how to build cryogenic detectors and have operated in a real "clean room". I know what clean means!

- Yes, I format in the M9 first.

 

This is not a unique problem. I have seen other devices in the last 5 years which were very sensitive to the exact card. The Palm Lifedrive is a good example. Retrofits of CF cards to the memory were very sensitive to the exact series of Sandisk cards, not just the card label. I could provide more details and links if one wants.

 

We should bring the discussion back to the heart of the matter. The Leica M9 software/firmware has a problem with interfacing to SD cards and Leica should address the issue. Look at this rationally:

- Do other cameras need specific cards?

- There is an industry standard which SD cards must meet, even the alleged fake cards meet. This is no excuse that the card does not work in a device designed for SD cards.

- There is no reliable list of restricted cards from Leica that will work since the manufacturers of the cards do change production runs and manufacturing sources.

 

My personal conclusion is that the problems are related to format issues in the card. Like disk drives, the innards of these cards are grouped in sectors and tracks. A Sandisk Ultra II 8 GB from 3 years ago does not necessarily have the same layout as a Sandisk Ultra 8 GB from current production. And, they may not behave the same if the firmware to read them does not account for these changes. The responsibility lies with the device using the SD card (ie Leica). Don't just blame the cards!

 

And, I agree that the work around discussion is not a satisfactory solution.

- "Don't fill the SD card" - Think about that. Is it necessary for any other device that you use with an SD card? Actually I do use this solution for some cards on the M9 but it is not satisfactory.

- "buy many cards, then stick to the one card you find which works" - No comment. This is as ridiculous as it sounds.

 

I'll refrain from further ranting. I really like the M9. For my applications, it is the best camera I've ever used. But, I'm not afraid to admit that there serious issues that need addressed. The SD card problems are really serious and Leica should address this with high priority.

 

RM

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[Robert_M]

Try one of the SD cards that Leica recommends. You might have a fake card.

 

My response is over at another, related thread.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/190113-my-m9-eating-sd-cards-5.html

 

 

In short, I have been using recommended SD cards. And, in any case it is irrelevant! If you build a device which is intended to use SDHC and SD cards, it is expected to work with such cards. Working with some peculiar subset of acceptable cards is not an acceptable response.

[scrubs]

My response is over at another, related thread.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/190113-my-m9-eating-sd-cards-5.html

 

 

In short, I have been using recommended SD cards. And, in any case it is irrelevant! If you build a device which is intended to use SDHC and SD cards, it is expected to work with such cards. Working with some peculiar subset of acceptable cards is not an acceptable response.

 

 

I agree Robert and for the record I can assure people my card was 100% legitimate

apart from being bought from long standing reputable store - Jacobs. it came with free

working license serial numbers for Sandisk software. Counterfeit cards are really

not the problem here.

[scrubs]

Thanks Robert,

 

In case a Leica technician ever does get round to reading this, I will try and provide

some specific details of what happened but they are unfortunately a little vague in part.

 

When I switched the camera on, I first was not aware it was a memory card issue

and thought my camera had completely died, shutter button did not work..

no display on screen. In my absolute worry - I tried turning camera on and off

several times repeatedly pressing the shutter button. Once in an intermittent

while the shutter would fire, but sounded like it had a really long shutter speed,

then wouldn't work again.. turn on and off a few more times and it allowed to

trip the shutter again - once.

 

I then looked into the view finder (and this is where it gets a little vague)

I am sure I can recall the exposure meter constantly climbing - as in

the under exposure arrow - the red dot - then the over exposed arrow

all lighting in sequence - as if it was moving to the right in that order.

 

It also displayed some letters (perhaps when I pressed the shutter - not sure)

and again I am not exactly sure which letters. I Think it was CF but

like I say, I can not be certain, I would certainly rememberand recognise

if somebody else told me the letters.

 

Anyway, I don't know if that is any help, but all I have at the moment.

[Washington]

Ok guys….

I do agree that it is NOT a card problem: all I was pointing out was the best way to

avoid counterfeit cards. I was not saying this was indeed the issue. Most certainly

something is screwy with the camera: so why don’t these people come right out and

say so….. and fix it. That is what I find as over-the-top arrogance ! They know damn well

there is a big problem here already…. and they got nothing to say? Horrible service:

period.

[k-hawinkler]

I just sent an email on the topic to an acquaintance at Leica US who I thought had a higher position in the company than the customer service and technical support people.

 

Unfortunately, that person's out-of-office reply reads:

 

 

 

 

Hi Howard,

 

BTW, it didn't say which year!

 

You could write to:

 

Roger W. Horn

President

Leica Camera Inc.

1 Pearl Court, Unit A

Allendale, NJ 07401

This name and address was on my passport protection plan for one of my lenses.

 

Best, K-H.

[scrubs]

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This is the email received from Leica Customer Services

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your interest in the Leica M system.

 

 

 

I apologize for my late answering. In the meantime I have discussed your request with our quality control department.

 

 

 

Extreme Pro is a new card by San Disk with "UHS" standard. In principle they should be backward compatible. Meanwhile we had a few requests of customers, who had problems with these cards. Our quality control department is insistently working on a (firmware-)solution regarding the compatibility with these card standard.

 

 

 

Alternatively please format the card as FAT32 in the PC, or use a slower sdhc-card that does not provide the UHS standard. The camera is the limiting factor in this case. A card that is faster than 30 MB/s does not show any advantages in combination with the Leica M9.

 

 

 

I have also forwarded your complaint regarding the magenta fringing magenta colour cast in the highlights to the quality control department. To focus the problem, my colleagues have some additional questions:

 

- Just to be sure: have you activated the the 6-Bit lens detection (correction profile) for taking these photos?

 

- Have you shot the photos with any filters?

 

- Which white balance modus have you chosen?

 

- Did you shoot in single shot modus or have you done a series of photos or a bracketing?

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your patience and your reply in advance.

 

 

 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards*

 

Good to know they have aknowledged the problem and are working on it! In my response I mentioned while the majority of problems were Sandisk

there were still problems with other cards also and gave him links to all threads. Fingers crossed.

[k-hawinkler]

Hi scrubs,

 

Thanks. The term (firmware-)solution caught my attention. Excellent.

However, that new card is not their only problem.

They simply have to comply with the standards.

I certainly feel vindicated in using the phrase firmware bug(s).

 

Leica also carefully has to examine the real-time aspects of how the various controls of the M9 interact with the firmware and memory card.

 

Best, K-H.

[Robert_M]

K-H,

 

Just to add some more facts to my experience: My card problems have occurred with both the old firmware (ca last April) and the new firmware update. I have not seen a change, but I also have not experimented to elicit a change in the problem. The problems are hard to reproduce without spending a lot of time taking images, filling the card, and monitoring the behavior. The firmware does not appear to handle the SD cards correctly. But I'm not convinced that the latest firmware upgrade has changed anything.

 

For those wanting to understand more, there is a good summary of SD and SDHC card info at Secure Digital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

 

I do have to wonder if some of the issues are related to the industry changing from SD to SDHC standards. Has anyone had any problems with an SD card (as opposed to a SDHC card). Standard SD cards only went to 2 GB. (There were some with special tweaks to 4 GB, but we should ignore those since they may have other issues of their own).

 

Did the earliest versions of the M8 use only SD cards or did they also take SDHC cards? Someone please educate me since I have never handled an M8. Thanks.

 

RM

[john_newell]

The earlier M8 firmware versions would not read an SDHC card. There are still occasional problems reported when someone tries to update the firmware on M8s running one of the earlier firmware versions from an SDHC card, which won't work because the camera can't read the SDHC card until the firmware is updated...can be a vicious circle.

 

K-H,

 

Just to add some more facts to my experience: My card problems have occurred with both the old firmware (ca last April) and the new firmware update. I have not seen a change, but I also have not experimented to elicit a change in the problem. The problems are hard to reproduce without spending a lot of time taking images, filling the card, and monitoring the behavior. The firmware does not appear to handle the SD cards correctly. But I'm not convinced that the latest firmware upgrade has changed anything.

 

For those wanting to understand more, there is a good summary of SD and SDHC card info at Secure Digital - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

 

I do have to wonder if some of the issues are related to the industry changing from SD to SDHC standards. Has anyone had any problems with an SD card (as opposed to a SDHC card). Standard SD cards only went to 2 GB. (There were some with special tweaks to 4 GB, but we should ignore those since they may have other issues of their own).

 

Did the earliest versions of the M8 use only SD cards or did they also take SDHC cards? Someone please educate me since I have never handled an M8. Thanks.

 

RM

[lcrl]

Well - I could not switch from a Nikon P&S to an Olympus one without the Olympus crashing, so it is certainly not unique.

And deleting in the camera should not create a problem. If my M8/9 would do that it would be in Solms.After I did a forensic check on my SD card.

 

With all due respect, you are probably right, but I have done exactly that with a M9 with

no problems! I take in my crappy Ritz generic 4Gb card from my Panny LX-3 and use

it without formating when I visit Ace Photo as I inch ever closer to buying a M9.

 

It's formatted on the LX3, pictures are stored

Then I use it on a M9 (asking permission of course)

Then it goes back in the LX3 recording more pictures

 

Then I hook the LX3 up to my Imac and import both the Panny and M9 files

(jpeg and RAW from both) directly into aperture.

[UliWer]

If we take the forum for serious, we have to acknowledge that both versions are valid:

 

One version, which points at different problems with different cards - sometimes constant with special cards, sometimes intermittent with different cards, sometimes with new cards using the UHS-standard, sometimes with traditional cards on the Leica list of recommended ones.

 

The other version is: with no regards to special cards and special treatment of them there are no problems. I don't follow any recommendation about what to avoid with cards and do everything wrong - I never had a problem, neither with the M8 nor with the M9, and with none of the different firmware versions since fall of 2007. I don't care much where I buy, I leave them unprotected and even formatted them on the computer, I used them in different cameras and with different card readers - just no problems.

 

But this does not mean that those problems which are reported here by different users do not exist.

 

If one regards all possibilities and does not find a common cause for specific problems elsewhere, it is the individual camera which makes the difference. Perhaps the contacts in the card slid, perhaps the electronics, we don't know. So it is up to Leica to look after this. They should make all their cameras like mine: just not interested in cards' issues.

[k-hawinkler]

UliWer,

 

Not necessarily.

You have not considered how someone might interact with an M9

while images are being transferred to a memory card.

 

In this regard, the M9 behaves differently - not necessarily better - with the last firmware update.

That's my observation. I believe there were firmware issues from the start.

 

K-H.

[Chipkahn]

I have contaced Leica and they are looking into it. But at first they tried to put me off by saying it must have been a corrupted card. You should contact Leica too and tell them about the problem. It will help I think if a number of us M9 userss contact them. They need to take this seriously.

[scrubs]

I have contaced Leica and they are looking into it. But at first they tried to put me off by saying it must have been a corrupted card. You should contact Leica too and tell them about the problem. It will help I think if a number of us M9 userss contact them. They need to take this seriously.

 

I completely agree,

 

It took me more than one email to get a response. But is imperative we let them know,

rather than allow others or ourselves kid us into believing that this is a problem with our

procedure, or shift the blame on the cards or some other excuse. It is no coincidence

this problem is turning into an epidemic, a problem that indeed lies with Leica and I think

they now know and aknowledge this, but we certainly need to drill it home.

 

Too many of us will complain yet do nothing about it and live with it. As much as I love

my camera, if it isn't sorted I will sell up and move on.

[k-hawinkler]

Chip,

 

Thanks.

 

Right, who at Leica did you contact?

They had my camera before for repairs.

 

Best, K-H.

[Robert_M]

Maybe we should all start emailing Leica with factual information on the behavior of cards and the problems. I am not encouraged that the first response is denial of a problem. There is an issue and it should be addressed.

 

Could we PLEASE drop this non-sense about corrupt cards and fake cards. I have yet to hear that these alleged "errand" cards do not work in other devices (cameras, computers, MP3 players, etc). Can someone tell me if there are issues with any cards in the Leica X1? I have not handled that camera and don't know. Educate me.

 

Again, I refer people to do some research on other information available. I've already listed a wikipedia article above which is a good summary of the SD cards and differences with SDHC cards. I will note a particular, relevant quote in that article,

 

"The communication protocols for the SDHC/SDXC/SDIO families are slightly different from those of the established SD family, which has caused older host devices to not recognize the newer card families. When an SDHC or SDXC card is inserted into an older SD host device, it shouldn't cause any physical or electrical damage to either the card or host device, though the host device won't be able to recognize the card. Some older host devices don't correctly handle 2 GB and/or 4 GB SD cards since they use larger blocks. Most incompatibility issues can be resolved with a firmware update, but unfortunately vendors rarely correct issues in older host devices."

 

The fact is that the M8 started as a SD only protocol. I can accurately guess that the update to include SDHC cards involved a modification of the existing code (that is just how computer programming works). So I logically ask, is the source of the problem in that changeover in protocol and code? Again, I ask, does anyone know of ANY problems with SD cards as opposed to SDHC cards? This is a logical question to ask. And, it is a logical path to pursue in tracking down the problem.

 

 

To continue my own investigation into the problem, I used some Linux utilities (under Ubuntu) to look at my various SDHC and SD cards used on the M9. I also did some benchmark read speed testing. I could not really find any differences in the new and older Sandisk cards (the older ones have been flawless and the newer ones have caused problems - see above posts). Same with the Kingston card. Interesting to note that the cards are rated at lower speed (15 MB/s) than they test out to be in a benchmark read test (20 MB/s). Another indication of authentic cards. It is unlikely that an imitation card would claim lower performance than actually delivered, but that would be the policy from reliable firms. I have note yet found the right utility/application to delve into block sizes, internal ID's, etc. I'll keep trying.

 

BTW, just for information, the Leica M9 formats the cards as Win95 version of FAT32. Yes, you all knew it was FAT32. And, it is another red herring to dwell on where the card was formatted. Formatting in a computer or the camera should work if done as FAT32. All that matters is that the camera will correctly, and conveniently, add the volume label as "Leica M9". If you format in the computer, you will have to assign the proper volume label manually. However, I do recommend formatting in the camera for convenience and consistency. Don't know about you, but we all make errors in the computer when given choices and being in a hurry. The lack of choices in the camera assure that the format is correct.

 

 

RM

[zlatkob]

Could we PLEASE drop this non-sense about corrupt cards and fake cards. I have yet to hear that these alleged "errand" cards do not work in other devices (cameras, computers, MP3 players, etc).

 

I'm not so sure that it's nonsense. Google "fake sandisk card lost photos" or "fake sandisk card corrupted photos" and you will at least hear about fake cards losing photos. That doesn't mean that anyone's card problems with the M9 are necessarily from fake cards, but it does mean that it is a possibility worth considering. There are quite a lot of fake cards out there, and some of them do perform very badly, so it is possible that some M9 owners have encountered problems caused by fake cards. I just wouldn't assume that fake cards fully meet any particular standard.

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[k-hawinkler]

I'm not so sure that it's nonsense. Google "fake sandisk card lost photos" or "fake sandisk card corrupted photos" and you will at least hear about fake cards losing photos. That doesn't mean that anyone's card problems with the M9 are necessarily from fake cards, but it does mean that it is a possibility worth considering. There are quite a lot of fake cards out there, and some of them do perform very badly, so it is possible that some M9 owners have encountered problems caused by fake cards. I just wouldn't assume that fake cards fully meet any particular standard.

 

Neither does the M9 - it appears.

All my memory cards work just fine in my Nikons!!!!!!!!!

After they failed in the M9.

 

There are an awful lot of excuses and red herrings presented on this forum.

 

K-H.

[Washington]

The fake cards are identical in EVERY WAY outside …. on the inside is cheap crap.

Loads of dealers and suppliers have been taken in by this scam because no one can tell

if it’s real or not without unpacking it and testing. There is a huge quantity of fake cards

being sold just now by honest dealers. Again, I am NOT saying this is the Leica problem.