The X1: Now an AMAZING street photography machine!

[andybarton]

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And you still don't close it ?

It's a pointless argumentative thread

 

PMs have been sent and I am trying to get this on an even keel.

 

We don't just close threads because someone disagrees with someone else.

[phancj]

Who's arguing Andy? Certainly not me.

 

I forgot, isnt this a forum for people to express their views? By your reasoning we should not say anything then??

 

We can still put our thoughts across without being abrasive, something I am trying to do here consciously.

 

On your point of Ms being fast, I can tell you OUTSIDE of this forum 1) many do not know what a RF is 2) Many consider any manual focusing slow. For the sake of discussion try to do a poll OUTSIDE the small ecosphere of leica RF users and you may begin to see what I mean. For the large part of society no AF and only MF means slow.

 

You may have been a a little more than thrilled with the Ms as I am with the X1 so that makes for excellent discussion IMO.

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[andybarton]

You are not the one who is arguing.

 

I have work to do...

[phancj]

As I do Andy, I post in between my work.

 

Your point of "a lot of people" thinking that the M is fast is IMHO ridiculous. M users represents a miniscule proportion of the photographic world. Ditto your statement of many who consider the X1 slow, coz not many people have tried it either. Leica users represents practically a negligible proportion of the global population.

 

IMO leica is smart to wake up in time to realize that AF is imperative in this day and age and put their development concurrently into the S and X line.

 

Hopefully they get their AF R-line up and running too! If they manage to build an AF M I will buy one in a heartbeat.

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[diogenis]

I would agree with almost everything you said except the M being "incredibly fast" Sorry, but it cannot be faster than AF, slow or not. I find focusing in the RF nice and bright but not blazing fast for sure, especially so when you have spent some time shooting it can be tiring. IMO AF is almost always faster than MF, no matter what others try to tell me otherwise. RF focusing requires very deft concentration and quick reflexes to find parts of the objects to match and in certain situations can be slow, not to say some cannot be very fast but you cannot beat electronics I am afraid. And since I havent owned RF cameras before I have no experience it makes the learning curve that much more tedious. Try to see how many RF cameras are being sold compared to AF cameras and you get the picture I am definitely not alone in my thinking.

 

Having said that I havent ruled out the M9 yet, just that my priority is to upgrade my nikon since I got some lux oops sorry nikkor 1.4s. They are very very good lenses, with AF to match.

 

The noctilux though is so intriguing and out of this world, it is something I desire to own right now but am worried it may be just a passing infatuation....

 

CJ

 

CJ,

It IS blazing fast. And accurate! And incredibly easy.

With it, you can focus anywhere you want or think. Your mind thinks and your hand pulls the lever to coincide the patches. It is mechanical and therefore it also includes dexterity which means you can improve it as time goes by. If you are not old or have eyesight problems then it will work fast for you.

Why don't you rent a real M and try it out for a week? Im sure you will find plenty around for testing or renting. Then come back here and tell me what you think. Don't listen to rumors.

[andybarton]

As I do Andy, I post in between my work.

 

Your point of "a lot of people" thinking that the M is fast is IMHO ridiculous. M users represents a miniscule proportion of the photographic world. Ditto your statement of many who consider the X1 slow, coz not many people have tried it either. Leica users represents practically a negligible proportion of the global population.

 

 

Obviously, I was talking about those people with experience of both systems, not just any old man-in-the-street.

[phancj]

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CJ,

It IS blazing fast. And accurate! And incredibly easy.

With it, you can focus anywhere you want or think. Your mind thinks and your hand pulls the lever to coincide the patches. It is mechanical and therefore it also includes dexterity which means you can improve it as time goes by. If you are not old or have eyesight problems then it will work fast for you.

Why don't you rent a real M and try it out for a week? Im sure you will find plenty around for testing or renting. Then come back here and tell me what you think. Don't listen to rumors.

Diogenis,

 

Fortunately or unfortunately my view on the M is based on me trying both the M8 and M9 (at one point I was that close to buying one). Yes, the experience is nice and I am sure one will get faster with practice. But the RF focusing requires one to "match" a portion of the image together to coincide and in some scenes and lighting conditions it is not fast for sure. After churning out a few dozen shots my eyes were just tired, really. And I am "just":p in my forties...and no Diogenis I will never subscribe to rumors, I tested the system, liked everything about the Ms except the lack of AF. I tried very hard to overlook this part of the equation but simply couldnt in the end. I decided the convenience and casual shooting of AF is critical to my enjoyment of the camera at this point in my life.

 

I am going to the States soon where M9s are much less expensive than where I live and I have decided NOT to buy it on this trip. This is also after consultation and much deliberation after talking to M users including a former X1 owner and all of them talk how nice the Ms are built and the great low iso images BUT almost all talk of how "considered" shooting has to be and not one tells me of speed, only how careful and meticulous one has to be to make shots since much is dependent on the photographer. I like AF systems and the X1 where I just compose and shoot with minimum fuss. Also, exposure and WB readings can be tricky to handle in the Ms.

 

Not to say in sometime in the future (after I buy the new nikon) I may not revisit the idea to have an M for more considered shooting, just not right now.

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[Ecaton]

As I do Andy, I post in between my work.

 

Your point of "a lot of people" thinking that the M is fast is IMHO ridiculous. M users represents a miniscule proportion of the photographic world. Ditto your statement of many who consider the X1 slow, coz not many people have tried it either. Leica users represents practically a negligible proportion of the global population.

 

IMO leica is smart to wake up in time to realize that AF is imperative in this day and age and put their development concurrently into the S and X line.

 

Hopefully they get their AF R-line up and running too! If they manage to build an AF M I will buy one in a heartbeat.

 

CJ

 

You are all over the place desperately trying to make a point long lost. The thread was about the X1 being phenomenal for street shooting in ZF mode after FW upgrade and even being as fast as a Leica M9. Fact is that the X1, thanks to FW upgrade, is now being usable for ZF, as are many other cameras.

All this has little to do with AF versus MF. And by the way, when I ZF with my M9 I beat the AF speed of my X1 anyday, even on a bad day. This does not make the X1 a bad camera and is not meant to bash it. But for ZF, it clearly looses to its big brother. The M system as well as the X1 are tools with obvious limitations. Being in denial and jumping into everyones face (not you, I know) who dares mentioning these limitations does not add to a civilized discussion. Have you notized how laid back the M crowd reacted to some of your inacurate statements about the M8/M9? Because you are entitled to your opinion;)

[phancj]

We are entitled to our opinions, although I do not see how "desperation" has anything to do with a discussion when we are expressing our opinions.

 

Bottom line is our experiences WIll all differ, you express yours, I express mine. I do not see how my cause is lost If there is indeed one), or how correct you are. No one is here to judge, coz no one really can. At the end of the day it is sharing of experiences. You can also ignore my posts or NOT read stuff posted in this forum if they irk you in any way. It's a free world!

 

Tell me something: You do not expect enthusiastic owners in An X1 thread??!! Ditto you see enthusiastic owners of M9s who defend the system and practically deem it flawless, ditto M8, sony,etc,etc,etc its a forum ....

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[diogenis]

Yes, the experience is nice and I am sure one will get faster with practice. But the RF focusing requires one to "match" a portion of the image together to coincide and in some scenes and lighting conditions it is not fast for sure.

 

CJ,

Yes the basic knowledge is indeed to coincide the patches, but this doesn't tell you much about how much, when to watch more, with what types of lens etc... You see, focusing accuracy is demanding when you use larger apertures, or longer lenses, but not that demanding otherwise. Focusing accuracy also is a lot more demanding at small distances around 2-4 meters and less after that. All these factors affect speed, but not final photo. Typical mistake is when one tries to coincide hairs in 10m distances. This is when you struggle with focus. But you can also learn how to do this fast with experience. It's easy

[phancj]

CJ,

Yes the basic knowledge is indeed to coincide the patches, but this doesn't tell you much about how much, when to watch more, with what types of lens etc... You see, focusing accuracy is demanding when you use larger apertures, or longer lenses, but not that demanding otherwise. Focusing accuracy also is a lot more demanding at small distances around 2-4 meters and less after that. All these factors affect speed, but not final photo. Typical mistake is when one tries to coincide hairs in 10m distances. This is when you struggle with focus. But you can also learn how to do this fast with experience. It's easy

 

Hi Diogenis,

 

Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

 

These days I shoot a lot of portraits which demand the small distance you speak of, and thats the conditions that I tried the M9 on several occasions (the M8 too). I found focusing very doable and totally accurate but not too fast. Also, from my observations (right or wrong do not take me to task for a personal opinion) the images from Leicas seem to exhibit a very special feel to the images (in the X1 and the lux lenses I tried) at larger apertures. Whilst I usually stop down in my nikkors (usually necessary) I find that leicas seem to exhibit phenomenal look with adequate if not great sharpness wide open. When I tried the lux wide open (50 and 35) EVERY shot was in focus but it took me quite a bit of effort and eye strain to get 2 to 3 dozen photos after that my eyes were shot haha....probably like you said coz I didnt stop down.

 

I know I'll get faster, dunno if I want to do the RF all day though....

[andybarton]

If you are getting eye strain when using an M, you either need contact lenses, glasses, or dioptre corrections fitted to the M.

[phancj]

Andy,

 

It's probably coz I was doing that for a while with few dozen photos. I wear corrective glasses already.

 

The first dozen or so photos were fun, after that it was blah! no fun at all.

 

I wished leica came up with the rumored R-solution at photokina but they didnt, so I went on to invest in more nikon primes.

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[Matus Kalisky]

If you are getting eye strain when using an M, you either need contact lenses, glasses, or dioptre corrections fitted to the M.

 

I am just wondering whether the eye strain does not come purely from too long and too "intense" focusing. I get similar feelings when focusing with my Mamiya 6 with the 150/4.5 close and shooting wide open - the focusing accuracy is just on edge there so I am trying to do my very best not to ruin the shot. So maybe it is just more training that is required to get more relaxed (and faster) during the focusing.

[diogenis]

I still feel we need to see your work to illustrate this .

 

Yes, I can perfectly understand your need to improve your work, but don't speak on behalf of others.

[phancj]

I am just wondering whether the eye strain does not come purely from too long and too "intense" focusing. I get similar feelings when focusing with my Mamiya 6 with the 150/4.5 close and shooting wide open - the focusing accuracy is just on edge there so I am trying to do my very best not to ruin the shot. So maybe it is just more training that is required to get more relaxed (and faster) during the focusing.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that I will get faster with practice but the eye strain I suspect is inevitable. I wasnt under any pressure at all when trying out the RF and was in fact pretty relaxed but it is similar effect as being in front of the computer for a long spell, the same kind of fatigue.

 

There is a considerable amount of concentration with the eyes to achieve tack sharp focus, and we are human so we will tire. Not so sure if we can be trained to be not tired haha...

 

I was most excited when I read rumors about leica developing an AF system where the sensor moves to do the autofocus but alas it didnt materialize...

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

[diogenis]

Hi Diogenis,

 

Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

 

These days I shoot a lot of portraits which demand the small distance you speak of, and thats the conditions that I tried the M9 on several occasions (the M8 too). I found focusing very doable and totally accurate but not too fast. Also, from my observations (right or wrong do not take me to task for a personal opinion) the images from Leicas seem to exhibit a very special feel to the images (in the X1 and the lux lenses I tried) at larger apertures. Whilst I usually stop down in my nikkors (usually necessary) I find that leicas seem to exhibit phenomenal look with adequate if not great sharpness wide open. When I tried the lux wide open (50 and 35) EVERY shot was in focus but it took me quite a bit of effort and eye strain to get 2 to 3 dozen photos after that my eyes were shot haha....probably like you said coz I didnt stop down.

 

I know I'll get faster, dunno if I want to do the RF all day though....

If you get eye strain, you probably were holding the camera wrong, maybe you also were closing one of your eyes. Maybe you were pressing the eye to the VF, maybe you were applying too much effort (force), which led to fatigue. Really you should NOT feel all these with Leicas. We are not crazy to use them.

In fact only recently I discovered that my dominant eye is now my right eye, or maybe that I am both left or right eye dominant! Or maybe something changed. Anyway, now I can compose with both eyes open and focus with right eye, which doesnt even have to be close to the VF.

[earleygallery]

I have absolutely no doubt that I will get faster with practice but the eye strain I suspect is inevitable. I wasnt under any pressure at all when trying out the RF and was in fact pretty relaxed but it is similar effect as being in front of the computer for a long spell, the same kind of fatigue.

 

There is a considerable amount of concentration with the eyes to achieve tack sharp focus, and we are human so we will tire. Not so sure if we can be trained to be not tired haha...

 

CJ

 

I really don't think that is the general experience of M users. Personally I've never had any issues with focussing an M camera.

[phancj]

If you get eye strain, you probably were holding the camera wrong, maybe you also were closing one of your eyes. Maybe you were pressing the eye to the VF, maybe you were applying too much effort (force), which led to fatigue. Really you should NOT feel all these with Leicas. We are not crazy to use them.

In fact only recently I discovered that my dominant eye is now my right eye, or maybe that I am both left or right eye dominant! Or maybe something changed. Anyway, now I can compose with both eyes open and focus with right eye, which doesnt even have to be close to the VF.

 

I hold the camera I believe the way it ought to be held haha almost the same way as a DSLR altho it is smaller. I open both my eyes like I do when using the DSLR and I do not press my eyes to the VF as I am wearing glasses. My right eye is dominant (actually I believe my left eye is a relatively lazy one) so I think I didnt do anything wrong. However, I do believe that I tend to shoot a lot of frames with any camera when I feel like taking photos and have to concede that doing few dozen shots with a RF is a relatively tiring exercise compared to the DSLR and yes the X1. With AF systems one just aim, compose and shoot, compared to find suitable patch/detail on RF, focus manually, compose then shoot.

 

CJ

Edited April 26, 2011 by phancj

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[prk60091]

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