M8 + high ISO + low light shooting

[sparkie]

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ok, i need to sound out those who have had success with this. so i read from a few threads that one option is to rate at ISO 640 (as higher is too grainy etc..) then -EV by one or two stops, then post-process for push one or two stops respectively. Giving a 1280 ISO and 2560 ISO shoot speed.

 

question is, does this work effectively?

 

others say to just nail the exposure, but from my experience 1250, and 2500 seem to be too noisy esp in colour

 

any other methods/techniques?

[ger1g0]

I have found that if shooting in color with very high ISO, that nailing the exposure is critical. When faced with darker conditions, most people tend to underexpose because of large swarths of dark areas. That is a no no for this sensor. In those cases, I have found that over exposing will save your image. Otherwise use B&W. I have also found that the B&W images with high iso from the camera actually pleasing.

[colonel]

I have found that if shooting in color with very high ISO, that nailing the exposure is critical. When faced with darker conditions, most people tend to underexpose because of large swarths of dark areas. That is a no no for this sensor. In those cases, I have found that over exposing will save your image. Otherwise use B&W. I have also found that the B&W images with high iso from the camera actually pleasing.

 

+1

although gettting the exposure dead-on is a general issue for digital cameras, as opposed to film which has more latitude

 

I find that even 2500 is fine when there is light, but dark areas quickly deteriorate

 

this is ISO 2500:

 

[wstotler]

Sparkie,

 

Know you hunted around, but try these two responses, which specifically address your question through technique:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/115133-waaaay-overexposed-photos-low-light-just.html#post1222178

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/115133-waaaay-overexposed-photos-low-light-just.html#post1222231

 

Cheers!

Will

[sparkie]

ok thanks guys. will have a read when i get a chance

 

so the technique described in my original post from what i have read is not the best technique?

 

sorry in a rush

[Henry Fool]

With the M8 in low light I shoot DNG at 640 iso. The amount of shadow detail captured is amazing, even if the image looks really underexposed on the LCD. Adjusting the exposure latitude in Aperture during post processing gives me a much better image than having shot at 1250 or higher.

[colonel]

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With the M8 in low light I shoot DNG at 640 iso. The amount of shadow detail captured is amazing, even if the image looks really underexposed on the LCD. Adjusting the exposure latitude in Aperture during post processing gives me a much better image than having shot at 1250 or higher.

 

thats interesting. I always assumed 1250 is better then pushing 640

 

one thing I have found is that my M8 tends to over exposure slightly as the light drops. Taking this into account but also slightly under-exposing, by using 1 or 1.5 stop down, this gives me the benefit of faster speed for hand-held. Using this method I find that there is still plently of detail is the dark areas to recover in lightroom without undue grain.

[!Nomad64]

Shooting at 640 or 1250 is not particularly an issue provided that the exposure is correct, otherwise darker areas will show lots of noise looking like posterization. You'd better to slightly overexpose and amend that later during PP.

Alternatively, if you have to go with faster times because you're shooting action in the dark, you'll have then to cover the noise by closing the blacks.

If details in the shadows matter for the sake of composition then you might convert the picture in b/w. The M8 noise at higher ISO has a close resemblance to high speed film grain and at least to me it is quite pleasant.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

[wstotler]

ok thanks guys. will have a read when i get a chance

 

so the technique described in my original post from what i have read is not the best technique?

 

sorry in a rush

 

Yes, correct.

[jaapv]

The M9 FAQ are very useful for M8 owners as well:

 

 

Question:

I have heard conflicting stories on high-ISO performance of the M9. But I have seen beautiful results as well, even at ISO 2500. How do I get the best quality images at high-ISO?

 

Answer:

 

There is a vital difference between the M9 and all other high-end digital cameras. The M9 has virtually no in-camera noise reduction at high ISO, resulting in more detail, but also more visible noise. To avoid this noise, there are two steps to be taken, but first consider the type of photograph:

Low contrast diffuse light or high contrast with specular highlights.

The first trick is to gather as many photons on the sensor as possible to improve Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) without overexposing. That means: use the histogram. And go manual.

 

It is easiest with the flat image - just bunch the peak up to the right and flatten the lefthand side of the histogram.

 

The high contrast image will need clipping of the specular highlights. So move them off the righthand side of the histogram, and you will see the signal coming up on all other light levels. There is your optimum SNR which you must try to preserve whilst taking photographs by manually adjusting the exposure to the amount of real light, i.e. disregarding the bright spotlights that are trying to fool you into underexposing.

This presupposes that you are on manual and are spending some time “ shooting the histogram in” before starting to shoot in earnest.

 

Note that at ISOs below about 1250 you have enough SNR leeway to start trying to preserve highlights - a whole different game than avoiding noise!

 

Now we come to the second step: the capture sharpening and noise reduction in Adobe Camera raw 6 and Lightroom 3. I will describe the procedure for ACR 6.0, Lightroom users will be able to translate this easily, as it is basically the same.

 

First make sure the program is set to Process Version 2010. You will find the setting under the Camera Calibration menu.

 

If an exclamation mark appears on the lower righthand side of your preview it means you have an image that has been processed in Version 2003. Click the exclamation mark to reset the Process Version.

 

With the image open (make sure your output parameters are set to Profoto RGB and 16 bits!) adjust the color balance and exposure to taste, and switch to the detail panel and hit alt-option(command)-0 to go to 100% view.

 

We will use the sliders from top to bottom( more or less), bearing in mind that ACR is non-destructive and, with a subsequent adjustment made it is wise to got back to the previous steps for finetuning. It takes some experience to “ play” all settings to their optimum.

 

Sharpening slider.

Set for the optimum detail separation (normally between about 10 and 40), never mind that you seem to increase the noise, in conjunction with the next

 

Radius slider

Use the range of 0.5 to 1.5, never more. 0.5 is for high-frequency detail images like wooded landscapes, 1.5 for low-frequency detail images like glamour portraits.

Once set, bearing in mind that visible halos and artefacts introduced here will get you in trouble later, skip the next

 

Detail slider

for the time being.

And go to the

 

Masking Slider.

Then drag it with the alt key held down and you will see an edge mask being created on the fly. This will only be visible with the image at 100% or larger. It shows ( in white) what areas are being sharpened and (in black) which ones are being protected.

So drag it until only the edges you want sharpened are showing. Never mind the small detail. For that you have the

 

Detail slider.

Alt-drag that one until you have your fine detail back without enhancing too much noise.

 

Now go to the noise-reduction group.

 

First go to

 

Color.

Normally the default setting of 25 will be fine to suppress the color noise completely, but by all means play with the slider to find the optimum setting. If you get some color bleeding on color edges you can move the

 

Color Detail slider

from its default of 50, but be careful not to go too far left as it will make the image digitally smooth.

( the same for the Luminance Detail slider)

Normally you won’t be using those two.

 

The most important slider of the group is the

 

Luminance slider

Pull it right to see the noise disappear. When you are happy, go back to the sharpening group and tweak if needed, back to luminance, etc. (*)

 

And you are done, go back to the adjustments panel. Now if you have a mixed frequency image, you can correct by using the adjustment brush and tweak the sharpening, both to more sharp ( for instance the eyes in a portrait) or softer ( for instance the skin of somebody in a landscape) (**). Then go on and open the image.

 

Now this is a long instruction manual, but with a bit of practice it gets really quick and easy, and you can of course make a few presets for image types you commonly shoot.

 

 

(*)This is a most interesting slider. At a setting between 0 and 10 it will act as an extra sharpening slider for low-noise images, as it seems to add a bit of fine random structure, which enhances the impression of sharpness

 

(**) Of course, for the more Photoshop-minded the elegant way to do this is to optimize for one frequency, open as a Smart Object, copy and redo for the other frequency, create a layer mask in PS and paint in the effect, but on the whole I find that a bit of overkill for routine use.

 

[roydonian]

I’m always amused to read that the secret of getting good results with high ISO settings is to fully expose the image so as to avoid problems in the shadows.

 

The reason I find myself using high ISO settings is because there is not enough light.

 

In an exchange of emails with the late Sal diMarco some years back, I postulated (much to his amusement):

 

 

Richardson’s Rules for Available Light Shooting

 

Rule 1

You will invariably find that with the lens wide open and the shutter speed set to the lowest that you dare, plus the highest possible ISO, there is still only half or even a quarter of the amount of light that you need to get a decent image.

 

Rule 2

Possession of a Noctilux does not invalidate Rule 1

 

Best regards,

 

Doug

[jaapv]

Rule 3: One glass of whisky will steady your hands enough to get a proper exposure.

[wda]

ok, i need to sound out those who have had success with this. so i read from a few threads that one option is to rate at ISO 640 (as higher is too grainy etc..) then -EV by one or two stops, then post-process for push one or two stops respectively. Giving a 1280 ISO and 2560 ISO shoot speed.

 

question is, does this work effectively?

 

others say to just nail the exposure, but from my experience 1250, and 2500 seem to be too noisy esp in colour

 

any other methods/techniques?

sparkie, while I try to avoid using high ISO unless absolutely necessary, I do find LR3 does a good job reducing noise effects during post processing. Even better, in my opinion, is a specialist plug-in. I have used Noise Ninja very successfully since pre-M8 days.

[wstotler]

Rule 3: One glass of whisky will steady your hands enough to get a proper exposure.

 

Rule 4: Have your assistant hold the shotglass and whisky bottle to free your hands up. While they're at it, have them hold the portable light with their other hand to eliminate high ISO requirements.

 

Rule 5: Chide assistant for scheduling your shoot to coincide with dim conditions.

[roydonian]

As the 'onlie begetter’ of Richardson’s Rules for Available Light Shooting, I must reject Mr Jaapv’s proposed Third Rule.

 

As an experienced photographer and Member of the Press, I have long been aware of the technique he suggests. After extensive (if not exhaustive) trials, I have determined that although the best improvement in camera stability is obtained by imbibing a carefully calibrated measure of the quarter-cask version of Laphroaig single malt, there are several unwanted side-effects, namely:

 

The tendency of horizontal lines to take on a distinct tilt in the final image

 

The distressing appearance of multiple copies of the subject

 

An inability of the photographer to distinguish between these multiple copies

 

The presence of multiple images in the rangefinder patch

 

A tendency to forget the very purpose of the rangefinder patch – or indeed that of any of the controls that clutter up the camera.

 

A real risk of walking into the nearest Leica store, brandishing one’s credit card, and saying “ I’ve always wanted to own a….”

[!Nomad64]

The tendency of horizontal lines to take on a distinct tilt in the final image

 

Go shooting the leaning tower of Pisa to compensate

 

The distressing appearance of multiple copies of the subject

 

Ever heard of "backup copies"?

 

An inability of the photographer to distinguish between these multiple copies

 

Of course! If backup copies are properly done they must be undistinguishable one from another.

 

The presence of multiple images in the rangefinder patch

 

Choose the one in the middle

 

A tendency to forget the very purpose of the rangefinder patch – or indeed that of any of the controls that clutter up the camera.

 

HCB was of the same opinion. Most of the times he guessed the distance

 

A real risk of walking into the nearest Leica store, brandishing one’s credit card, and saying “ I’ve always wanted to own a….”

 

Come on, a real Leica fan should support his favorite Company. Unless you mean the credit card of someone else.

 

As the 'onlie begetter’ of Richardson’s Rules for Available Light Shooting, I must reject Mr Jaapv’s proposed Third Rule.

 

In view of the above your rejection of Jaap's 3rd rule is void.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

[jevidon]

I was a real fan of Noise Ninja for years. A few months ago I used a trial version of

TOPAZ DENOISE and bought it. It has much better intuitive control than Noise Ninja and produces better results.

[Cyril Jayant]

The M9 FAQ are very useful for M8 owners as well:

 

Thanks Japp .

This is a great tutorial for me and i need a little time to go through it . Thannks for the informations

Cheers:D

[Cyril Jayant]

Rule 3: One glass of whisky will steady your hands enough to get a proper exposure.

 

Or avoid getting into the area of NUDE PHOTOGRAPHY if can't handle stedy hands to get steady pictures:D:D:D:D

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[squarenegs]

Hi

 

My experience is to set the ISO you need in camera and do not try to push-process in RAW post. I've moved from CS3 to CS5 and the improvement in RAW processing has been worth the money.

The same should hold true for an upgrade to LR3

With CS5 I now get better results using ISO 2560 than I did at ISO 1250 processed RAW using my old,Photoshop CS3 version of ACR

All that said, there is very little exposure latitude at high ISO with the M8

Correct exposure is critical.

 

Regards

 

S. F.