freusen Posted February 24, 2011 Share #21 Posted February 24, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Can someone confirm this? I'd rather get the Zeiss because it's brighter - but I believe more in the accuracy statement. If the Leica is more accurate, I'll get the Leica. The older chrom/black Leitz finders didn't have an offset, the pastic finders have an offset, the 21-24-28mm vario-finder has an offset and the newest Leica finders have an offset (see attachment, picture from the popflash website). But I would suggest to look at the finders before you buy. All the talking of which is the brightest finder is bullshit, because you use the finder only for composing. Distortion can be an issue, therefore the vario-finder is very bad. I had one and sold it. If you want best value for your money, look at the metal voigtlander finders, nice, small and rather bright but no offset. ------------ FrankR Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/144842-21mm-viewfinder-leica-or-zeiss/?do=findComment&comment=1598711'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Hi freusen, Take a look here 21mm Viewfinder - Leica or Zeiss. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest Linsengericht Posted February 24, 2011 Share #22 Posted February 24, 2011 and the newest Leica finders have an offset (see attachment, picture from the popflash website). Where do you see an offset in this image? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted February 24, 2011 Share #23 Posted February 24, 2011 ... All the talking of which is the brightest finder is bullshit, because you use the finder only for composing. ... Frank, As I feel sure you're aware, one of the areas in which Leica rangefinder cameras excel is in low light shooting. Where a bright finder for composition is a huge help. So, no, it's not bullshit. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted February 24, 2011 Share #24 Posted February 24, 2011 I hadn't thought about the offset issue, but it makes sense. I have a few 21mm finders (Leitz/Leica single and 21-24-28, Contax G1/G2, C/V, even an ancient Yashica) and with film I never noticed any discrepancies. Probably a memory thing. I've only used the Leica finders with my M9 so far, and will stick with them now I've read this. I'm a bit surprised it's noticeable with 21mm though. I'd imagine it would be much worse with longer focal lengths due to the narrow angle. I tried an old Canon RF 13.5cm finder on an M and there was literally no overlap between what it showed and what the lens saw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
freusen Posted February 24, 2011 Share #25 Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Where do you see an offset in this image? I am very sorry, it seems that I made a mistake about the newest Leica finders. I don't have such a finder but attached is a picture of 3 finders: a plastic finder, a new metal finder and a voigtlander finder. It's a shame that the new finders have no offset! Is that because the mount for the M8/9 is directly over the lens axis? ------------ FrankR Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 24, 2011 by freusen Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/144842-21mm-viewfinder-leica-or-zeiss/?do=findComment&comment=1598949'>More sharing options...
jplomley Posted February 24, 2011 Share #26 Posted February 24, 2011 The Zeiss 21mm VF is absolutely terrific. Unlike the Leica, it is full metal construction I'm using the newest Leica 21/28 finder. It is solid brass, has a low profile, never flares, is highly corrected for distortion, and as an eyeglass wearer I never need to move my eye around to see the framelines. As I shoot with both the 21 Elmarit Aspherical and 28 Cron Asph, this was the ideal eyepiece for me. After almost two years of constant use and abuse, not a scratch to be seen on the glass itself even though I know I have dinged it. The paint however is wearing to a nice brass finish, but I rather like that look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gberger Posted February 25, 2011 Share #27 Posted February 25, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) For glasses-wearers: The Zeiss finder takes the same corrective screw-in diopter lenses as the Zeiss Ikon camera. Screw out the factory installed lens and put in your diopter lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 25, 2011 Share #28 Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I just spoke to my local Leica dealer who has ordered the 21mm Leica VF for me to trial and compare with my Zeiss. Unfortunately it won't be here 'till April. Once I have both VFs I'll post some comparison images aiming for identical subject framing through each VF so everyone can decide for themselves rather than guessing (unless someone who already has both VFs would like to do so sooner). I will also see if I can borrow a Voigtlandsr VF for the comparison. The only problem is that if I prefer the Leica it will set me back about $1100 AUD/USD but hopefully as the dealer put me onto the Zeiss I'll get some discount (?), and I'll sell the Zeiss. I'll report back in a new thread then. Regards all, Mark Edited February 25, 2011 by MarkP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willjanurgucken2000 Posted February 25, 2011 Share #29 Posted February 25, 2011 I am very sorry, it seems that I made a mistake about the newest Leica finders. I don't have such a finder but attached is a picture of 3 finders: a plastic finder, a new metal finder and a voigtlander finder. It's a shame that the new finders have no offset! Is that because the mount for the M8/9 is directly over the lens axis? ------------ FrankR Beside the Cheap-Plastic-Feel, why not get the plastic finder if it's more accurate? Am also surpised about the new metal finders having no offset. I just ordered my M9 and don't have it yet, but from the photos, the mount is not directly over the lens axis. Can anybody else explain this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 25, 2011 Share #30 Posted February 25, 2011 I just found this. The Rangefinder forum also has an interesting discussion with comparison images which favours the Leica VF http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79597 Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Linsengericht Posted February 25, 2011 Share #31 Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Am also surpised about the new metal finders having no offset. The 1cm offset itself is not relevant for framing with a 21mm lens. At minimum focus distance, the subject size/field of view is already 100cm, so that a 1cm offset is hardly visible. Edited February 25, 2011 by Linsengericht Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted February 25, 2011 Share #32 Posted February 25, 2011 I'll go through this one more time for all the 'experts'. 1. The M9 as well as all the other analog M cameras have the hot shoe offset from the center line of the lens. 2. Even though I don't have one of the newer M finders that have the M8 frame markings,it appears evident from pictures on the Leica website that the finder DOES have an offset. 3. I don't know if the older chrome finders were for Leica screw mount cameras but the Leitz/Leica finders built for M cameras that I am familiar with have an offset. 4. Zeiss hot shoes are in line with the center of the lens and don't require an offset for the Zeiss finder. 5. The lack of offset IS quite visible NOT in framing but in a ROTATION about a vertical axis. If you draw the composition graphically or take actual photographs as I did both, you can observe the affect of an offset that results when using the Zeiss finder on an M body. 6.The plastic finder with offset is quite usable but is not as bright and does not appear as sturdy as the Zeiss but the finder DOES NOT take the picture, so as long as the finder gives good framing and is in line with the lens center line ANY 21mm finder will work. EOT-Dick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Linsengericht Posted February 26, 2011 Share #33 Posted February 26, 2011 5. The lack of offset IS quite visible NOT in framing but in a ROTATION about a vertical axis. I can not confirm that. I use the Zeiss 21mm finder with Summilux 21, Biogon 21/2.8 and WATE @ 21. It works perfectly fine, no rotation or framing problems. I like the Zeiss finders for their optical quality: bright and low distortion. Before purchasing the Zeiss, I had the Leica 21-24-28 finder which did have an offset, but was optically terrible. I also had a Voigtlaender 28mm, which was ok, but nowhere near the big bright view of the Zeiss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted February 27, 2011 Share #34 Posted February 27, 2011 I looked at the following viewfinders when trying to find one for my M8 (to be used with the CV 15) Voigtlander 21 (not the 21/25 combo), 140€ Leica 21 old (plastic), 220€ 2nd hand Zeiss, 400€ The Zeiss probably was nicest. The Leica did not convince me. Went for the Voigtlander, because the view is bright and nice. Only identifyable as worse if directly compared. The price was good. I was thinking: I don't use it all the time, because 21mm is not my regular length Let's face it: viewfinders are NEVER accurate. Some more, some less. For accuracy get an SLR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz_Hillbilly Posted February 28, 2011 Share #35 Posted February 28, 2011 I actually use a Ricoh 21mm viewfinder (GV1) that was made for the GR Digital compact camera. I bought it second hand several years ago for very little money - less than $100 if I recall. It looks a lot like the Voightlander so I wouldn't be surprised if It was a re-badged version? You may want to check EBay because it is very bright and works well. My M9 and 21 Lux don't seem to complain when I use such an inferior accessory.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willjanurgucken2000 Posted March 1, 2011 Share #36 Posted March 1, 2011 I'll go through this one more time for all the 'experts'. 5. The lack of offset IS quite visible NOT in framing but in a ROTATION about a vertical axis. If you draw the composition graphically or take actual photographs as I did both, you can observe the affect of an offset that results when using the Zeiss finder on an M body. 6.The plastic finder with offset is quite usable but is not as bright and does not appear as sturdy as the Zeiss but the finder DOES NOT take the picture, so as long as the finder gives good framing and is in line with the lens center line ANY 21mm finder will work. EOT-Dick Budrichard - you're right. Also, I found towards the bottom under "framing accuracy - generally" "People who have pointed this out] are quite correct on this point and this is why some viewfinders don't frame perfecly. All of the Voigtländer finders were made for a centered shoe except for one! The 40mm finder was specifically designed for Leica M users for framing of the 40mm Summicron, and this finder has the ofset shoe to correct for the different placement of the M shoes compared to Voigtländers Bessas. So Voigtländer is well aware that there is a difference, it's not a fault of the design of their finders. " Leica FAQ — external viewfinders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie.lcf Posted March 1, 2011 Share #37 Posted March 1, 2011 All of the Voigtländer finders were made for a centered shoe except for one! The 40mm finder was specifically designed for Leica M users for framing of the 40mm Summicron, and this finder has the ofset shoe to correct for the different placement of the M shoes compared to Voigtländers Bessas. So Voigtländer is well aware that there is a difference, it's not a fault of the design of their finders. " The 21mm Voigtländer I just purchased is offset as well. However, it is not correctly offset - not far enough to the left to be centered above the lens on a Leica M. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/144842-21mm-viewfinder-leica-or-zeiss/?do=findComment&comment=1603184'>More sharing options...
H. James Wolf Posted March 1, 2011 Share #38 Posted March 1, 2011 I have used Contax, Zeiss, Leica, and CV finders for wider lenses - 35 down to 15. The framing in any of them is accurate enough for rangefinder work. If you want precise framing, get a Nikon F/F2 or one of the Leica reflex cameras. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted March 1, 2011 Share #39 Posted March 1, 2011 When I was shopping for finders, I looked at the Zeiss and Leica all metal finders. I would prefer the Zeiss finders, as they were on at least on par with the Leica finders, but almost 1/3 less expensive !!! In the end, I bought a Leica Frankenfinder simply because it is more economic and quite practical, as I use it on the M8.2 and film bodies for the 15 Heliar. What I love about it, is the adjustable parallax correction, the integrated bubble level, which can help quite a bit and the fantastic view, it provides. If you need to buy several finders, this finder is worth considering not only from an economical standpoint. I have two plastic Cosina finders - a Ricoh branded 28mm finder for the Ricoh GRD and a Voigtlander 15mm finder. Both are subpar by comparison with the Frankenfinder (distortion, brightlines, eyepoint, missing parallax correction). Although, they are "just" 120 − 150EUR each, it is money badly spent in my opinion. I do not understand the high second hand prices for the old plastic Leica finders without brightlines either - that is crazy (they go for 150 − 250 EUR here)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted March 1, 2011 Share #40 Posted March 1, 2011 CV is perhaps offset for Zeiss cameras? If not it is just their poor design dept that is told to make things to a price point. I have a zoom Leica finder, 21/28. No bright lines and I can`t frame worth anything with it. Ten years old and been on the camera 2 times. Pure junk. Came with a nice case though and has metal foot and a screw down clamp on the mount foot so it does not fall off. I have a whole set, 21, 28,35, 50,90,135, of the original metal finders. Pure joy compared to some of the junk. Also a CV 75, the first had frame line rotated and all my pics were crooked. PhotoVillage replaced it, but just goes to show about CV quality. The 21 has significant barrel distortion, real significant. The plastic 21 that replaced is 100% better, but people break the feet off. I would not buy anything with plastic feet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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