Paul Reading Posted January 21, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 21, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I woud love to see Leica make a Micro 4/3rds digital version of the CL it must have a viewfinder possibly an EVF. The camera should be price around £1500 so that it would fit nicely between the budget cameras and the M9. I don't believe that such a camera would compromise sales of the M9, because the M9 accepts our old M lenses and a digital CL would not. If possible zoom lenses should be similar in design to the lens of the Digilux 2 so that the moving elements are internal to the lens. I think this would be a camera that would fit nicely into the Leica range after all how many people her have an Olympus Pen in their collection? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 Hi Paul Reading, Take a look here Should Leica make a Micro 4/3 Digital CL?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
John Thawley Posted January 21, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 21, 2011 I woud love to see Leica make a Micro 4/3rds digital version of the CL it must have a viewfinder possibly an EVF. The camera should be price around £1500 so that it would fit nicely between the budget cameras and the M9. I don't believe that such a camera would compromise sales of the M9, because the M9 accepts our old M lenses and a digital CL would not. If possible zoom lenses should be similar in design to the lens of the Digilux 2 so that the moving elements are internal to the lens. I think this would be a camera that would fit nicely into the Leica range after all how many people her have an Olympus Pen in their collection? And this would mean what to the X1? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted January 21, 2011 Well I would not pay that sort of money for a fixed focal length camera and I can't afford an M9. I did buy a Digilux 2 when they were first launched and nothing that been launched since then by Leica has inspired me to buy another. What I am proposing is a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9 but allows the use of prime lenses and ultra wide angle lenses etc. The X1 is somewhat above this level isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted January 21, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 21, 2011 Well I would not pay that sort of money for a fixed focal length camera and I can't afford an M9. I did buy a Digilux 2 when they were first launched and nothing that been launched since then by Leica has inspired me to buy another. What I am proposing is a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9 but allows the use of prime lenses and ultra wide angle lenses etc. The X1 is somewhat above this level isn't it? I agree with you about the Digilux 2 - missed opportunity by Leica IMO. They could have grown that system into a beautiful product line by just moving it along delicately with new technologies. However, having spent a couple of months now shooting with M bodies, I can quite understand Leica making the X1 with a fixed 35mm focal view. I've come to prefer a 35mm on my M8.2 - though I suspect I'd prefer a 28mm due to the 1:33 crop. Regardless, I don't see myself carrying or collecting a bunch of lenses for my M. The mind set of a single prime becomes quite intriguing and oddly settling. I suspect had the X1 been released with a bayonet mount and a small line of "boutique" lenses, it might have a broader appeal. If not for the desire to have multiple lenses but at least the choice for the owner to mount their favorite focal length. The telescopic "on/off" lens application is what puts me off the X1. It just seems to somehow take away from the "seriousness" of the camera... for me. I do think what you are proposing though would (in the eyes of Leica marketing) intrude on existing product. I have a hunch they feel they have addressed their potential audience with the D-Lux and V-Lux at the "lower end" (as if?) and X1, M9 and S2 at the German built prestigious end. Hey... just an opinion right? We'll never really know what they're thinking. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted January 21, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 21, 2011 Well I would not pay that sort of money for a fixed focal length camera and I can't afford an M9. I did buy a Digilux 2 when they were first launched and nothing that been launched since then by Leica has inspired me to buy another. What I am proposing is a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9 but allows the use of prime lenses and ultra wide angle lenses etc. The X1 is somewhat above this level isn't it? i think leica made their decision on a digital "CL" or a successor to the D2 and that is the X1 It is obvious they don't want to make a "less expensive interchangeable lens" camera than the M9 that would cannabalize M9 sales (and the R&D for the lenses would make such a camera very expensive) I just read on another thread in the X1 forum here that a replacement lens/sensor combo for the x1 runs about 650 Euros (about half the cost of the total camera) face it folks if you want "a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9" you're gonna be stuck with a m4/3 camera made by Olympus/Panasonic and maybe Canon/Nikon in the future to use w/your old Leica glass- I do not believe leica will join that group. Just my opinion- I have been known to be wrong in the past.-just ask my wife Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 21, 2011 Well I would not pay that sort of money for a fixed focal length camera and I can't afford an M9. I did buy a Digilux 2 when they were first launched and nothing that been launched since then by Leica has inspired me to buy another. What I am proposing is a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9 but allows the use of prime lenses and ultra wide angle lenses etc. The X1 is somewhat above this level isn't it? The Digilux2 was pretty expensive relative to other cameras of its time - I fail to see a difference to the X1 in that respect. Leica have stated time and time again that they have no interest in 4/3rds, micro or otherwise, so there will not be a Leica in that range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted January 21, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 21, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) i think leica made their decision on a digital "CL" or a successor to the D2 and that is the X1 It is obvious they don't want to make a "less expensive interchangeable lens" camera than the M9 that would cannabalize M9 sales.... I just read on another thread in the X1 forum here that a replacement lens/sensor combo for the x1 runs about 650 Euros (about half the cost of the total camera) face it folks if you want "a small camera which fits between the compacts and the M9" you're gonna be stuck with a m4/3 camera made by Olympus/Panasonic and maybe Canon/Nikon in the future to use w/your old Leica glass- I do not believe leica will join that group. Just my opinion- I have been known to be wrong in the past.-just ask my wife But you have to admit... given the nature of digital technology and the built in obsolescence, the real competition to the X1 becomes a used M8 with a Voigtlander, Zeiss or older Leica glass. The X1 with a bayonet mount and as I said, a boutique range of small primes (let Panasonic make them) could open up a genuine and growing revenue stream. M users will always be M users... just as Canon and Nikon have their Pro and Pro-sumer lines. For me, and I mean no disrespect to X1 owners, there's not a lot of difference over the D-Lux 5. It just falls short. Again... IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted January 21, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 21, 2011 But you have to admit... given the nature of digital technology and the built in obsolescence, the real competition to the X1 becomes a used M8 with a Voigtlander, Zeiss or older Leica glass. . . . For me, and I mean no disrespect to X1 owners, there's not a lot of difference over the D-Lux 5. It just falls short. Again... IMO. no disrespect taken however; I was "cleaning up" my photo library last weekend and looking at images I have taken with my now sold & very heavy D2 my old and now sold Dlux4 and my current baby the X1....I probably become a better photographer since the days of the D2 but I think the IQ with the X1 "beats the *rap" out of my Dlux4 and honestly are on par with the D2 because of more experience my images are better now than with the D2 .... my biggest issue with the D2 was it's weight a full day of carrying it around was enough to make me leave it at home the next day... I have thought long and hard about the M8/8.2 with older glass but my wife gifted me the X1 first- and now I am used to its idiosyncracies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted January 21, 2011 It is obvious they don't want to make a "less expensive interchangeable lens" camera than the M9 that would cannabalize M9 sales (and the R&D for the lenses would make such a camera very expensive) Well I thought about that and I disagree, because the sensor size is much smaller than an M9 so it could never get to the quality level. I think many people here have bought Olympus/Panasonic cameras who would have been happy to buy a Leica version so instead of losing sales of the M9 they have lost sales to Olympus. I would envisage a Digital CL with 4 lenses at the most. A very wide angle 20mm (35mm eqv), a short zoom 28-90mm (35mm eqv), a 35mm prime (35mm eqv) and a 70-200mm (35mm eqv). A nice simple system and the market would be 20x the size of the market for the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted January 21, 2011 Share #10 Posted January 21, 2011 Well I thought about that and I disagree, because the sensor size is much smaller than an M9 so it could never get to the quality level. I think many people here have bought Olympus/Panasonic cameras who would have been happy to buy a Leica version so instead of losing sales of the M9 they have lost sales to Olympus. I would envisage a Digital CL with 4 lenses at the most. A very wide angle 20mm (35mm eqv), a short zoom 28-90mm (35mm eqv), a 35mm prime (35mm eqv) and a 70-200mm (35mm eqv). A nice simple system and the market would be 20x the size of the market for the M9. Leica like Apple create elegant solutions. In this case they would need to either design a special sensor (think of the R&D costs on that) or take a stock sensor and then create special lenses made especially for that sensor and you want the cost of the camera to be between $1000 and $2000US ? Leica has to make a profit or are you forgetting that? From what I have read in this and the x1 forum it is next to impossible to make a zoom version of the x1 (the physics is above my grade level) in an APC sensor size..........I may be wrong but I sorta think you are dreaming that it will ever happen. Your solution whether you like it or not is take your existing Leica glass buy the adapter and put it on an oly or pany m4/3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted January 21, 2011 Hasn't the work on a sensor been done by it's partner Panasonic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted January 21, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 21, 2011 The X1 is somewhat above this level isn't it? Which is why Leica can't make what you are proposing at the price you are proposing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted January 21, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 21, 2011 For me, and I mean no disrespect to X1 owners, there's not a lot of difference over the D-Lux 5. I don't feel disrespected, but this is just not true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 21, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 21, 2011 Paul, I think Leica is looking beyond u4/3rds. The X1, as it is, may not satisfy, but I think we can expect an eventual X2, X3, etc. - with a zoom lens, or possibly interchangeable lens mount (the last will require adding sensor-cleaning technology since the camera will no longer be a sealed lens/camera unit). Alternatively, the "Digital CL" may be the same camera as the hypothetical "R solution" as currently described here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/161537-r-solution-more-details.html - an EVF camera with bigger than u4/3rds sensor, its own lens line, but a short enough mount distance that it can also take M or R lenses via adapters. Without knowing the details of Leica's arrangements with Panasonic, it would probably not be difficult to arrange for a "Leica"-badged GS-1 or some such. But I think Leica's aim is to reduce its dependence on re-badging, and develop in-house solutions for everything except the most basic P&S market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 22, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 22, 2011 It would have to be far superior to, for example, the Panasonic Lumix M43 which Leica already sellls. I have one and the sensor is not adequate. It is just plain not good. Perhaps I have an outlier. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted January 22, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 22, 2011 I don't feel disrespected, but this is just not true. Well... I believe I said "for me".... My comment was not meant so much with respect to comparing the spec's of the two cameras but more to the point of how I would use them... how they would fit in to my life. There's a lot of appeal to the X1. But in the end FOR ME, a D-Lux 5 would accommodate most of the situations that would have me pulling an X1 off the shelf. It's obviously a terrific camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 22, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 22, 2011 I think this would be a camera that would fit nicely into the Leica range after all how many people her have an Olympus Pen in their collection? While everyone may have an opinion on this and is certainly entitled to it, Leica has made it crystal clear from day one that they have no intention of joining the Micro FourThirds effort. Stefan Daniel is on record having said something to this effect in August 2008, i.e. even before the first MFT camera was announced, and Leica has stuck to this position ever since. Quite obviously Leica doesn’t think an MFT camera would fit into their product range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 22, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 22, 2011 A Digital CL would be intriguing, and can be they are thinking of... but won't be in m4/3, anyway... to be a "real CL" it must accept M lenses and be "consistent" in format with Leica product line, so, imho : 1) APS---->X1 2) 18x27---->M8 3) FF----->M9 (but hard to think of a FF more compact than M9) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paolo.Battista Posted January 24, 2011 Share #19 Posted January 24, 2011 A digital CL could be a better chance for Leica to increase its customer base than Leica X1 in my opinion. The main problem is to find a sensor that could be small and good enough in order to deliver Leica IQ (at least at X1 level) at a smaller price than Leica M9. If that can be done, a CL in the price range of 2.000-2.500 euros, with it's own line of Summarit lenses, could be a quite good solution for many Leica newcomers to try the technology without having to buy an M9 (or "use" the "used" market for their first purchases, which is not entirely Leica interest). That system could easily accept M lenses directly or via adapter, and could use an optional EVF in order to make their use a little more comfortable. Could it be m4/3? Well, it depends on the new developed sensors. From what's happening in the 4/3 zone, it seems quite probable that Panasonic will be no more the only sensor maker for this standard. The latest APS-C designs show clearly that's space for improvements even on the 4/3 sensors, at least if you keep the resolution in the range of 10-14 MP. That resolution could be fine for the use of an entry level rangefinder, the dimensions could be small enough in order to have a CL-like body, the use of M telephoto lenses with an EVF could add versatility at the product. In my opinion, Cosina is at least thinking now at this approach, their 25 mm f:0,95 lens is in sold out state for the next months. So there could surely be some interest from the market. Maybe not from traditional Leica users, but, again, this could be a chance to expand the existing customer base maintaing the core Leica approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted January 24, 2011 I think a lot of people are simply put off by the sheer size of digital SLR's, I know I am. 4/3rds is a great format as it does allow for "traditional" sized cameras. Pentax and Olympus both specialised in keeping their MF films cameras (ME & OM1) neat and small. The idea of making a 4/3rds CL was to keep the costs low because the sensor work has been done. I assume Leica designed the Panasonic Lenses so in part they will have done some of the work their on the optics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.