My 1st Leica - X1 or Dlux5 for pocket cam?

[mmatos]

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hi all,

 

I am brazilian and work with systems security. This is my first post in the forum, so be sure I have read carefully many many topics before feel confident to open a new thread. Found this forum researching about GF1, throug Steve Huff site and reviews - which I consider amazing, thanks a lot for them.

 

I never had a good camera but always has been fascinated about photos. I like paintings too and as I cant even draw a house or a car, take photos makes me feel like an artist doing a painting, and even my iphone pictures makes me feel like this haha.

 

This year in march I could buy for myself a panny GF1 + 20 and 45/200 lens kit w/ tripod at Singapore. Since then I am "painting" a lot haha and I am really satisfied about the camera performance, but Im still learning as you can see at my Picasa.

 

Since I reach this forum and read many things, I am considering a pocket light camera which I dont have to carry a bag with gears everyday. So, why dont buy a Leica? and Im sure this is the best place I could ask advice for it.

 

My doubt is, as Im satisfied with GF1 (and want to buy more lenses like the leica 45 for macros and keep using it), for a pocket Leica camera should I go for DLux-5 or the X1? and, if DLux 5, what about the panny clone lx5? I want a light camera, and want macro pics too, but the GF1 with Leica lenses will do the trick like charm, Im sure. I also read this: Compare the Leica D-LUX 5 vs Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 - Snapsort , is it true the Leica is more than 70% smaller and thinner? and there, it says they are heavy too. I want to buy a light one to really carry everyday. And when I feel like "today Im going to take pictures", I can take the GF1 for a ride

 

I acknowledge the X1 have a legion of followers here.. but friends please keep in mind I want a small one, and also have a good camera for my skills (indeed I understand the X1 shots are the best),

 

I read a lot here, and you guys understand so much that is hard for a novice/newbie like me to assimilate everything and decide alone haha, thats why I am asking advice in this posting. I am packing to a Singapore/Bangkok/India trip on February (maybe sooner), and will get the new toys at 1st stop in Singapore.

 

sorry for typo mistakes, and thanks a lot for your time reading this, the forum is awesome! I hope I dont get the Leica disease, ending 2011 with a M9 haha.

 

Also still in time, merry xmas

 

cheers

 

Marco

[pharyngula]

The X1 and LX5 (Panny or Leica versions) are great cameras but quite different beasts. The X1 has the APS sensor and great IQ and ISO sensitivity and the LX5 is about as good as you can get in a versatile small sensor point and shoot. It sounds, however, that you might want something even more portable and truly pocketable (while still offering the features and control that non-casual photographers demand) so that you can have it with you all the time. In this regard, I'd suggest you also consider the Canon S90/S95. The LX5 just isn't as small and pocketable as the svelte S95.

 

I have an X1 but also keep an S90. The S90 goes with me everywhere - it is the camera I go out with each morning even when not expecting to shoot. The X1 only goes with me when I know that I have time for shooting in my day (but don't want to carry an M body). If the LX5 was more pocketable, that is the camera I would probably own instead of the S90.

 

For me, the X1 is not a replacement for a high-quality pants/shirt-pocket small sensor camera. An S95 or LX5 can truly go with me everywhere and in situations where I wouldn't give much thought to the possibility of it getting lost, stolen or otherwise subject to mishap.

[Dan States]

Based on what you say you want the x1 would not fit the bill. It is basically as big as the gf1 and is definitely not a pocket camera. The dlux and the lx5 are essentially the same camera in operation so you could go either way. They are essentially the same size. The leica offers a longer warranty and the best raw software available so that accounts fir the price difference.

 

I have the lx5, x1 and s90. The canon is quite small but you give up a lot of lens performance both in speed and optical quality. Consider that when zoomed out even slightly the canons max aperture drops quickly, forcing higher iso use. In

micro sensor cameras high iso performance is always the turd in the pool, so any lens speed advantage means cleaner files.

 

Best wishes

Dan

[michael friedberg]

Marco -I have the G1, the X-1 and the D-lux4. For your needs I vote for the D-lux5. I love my X-1 but it isn't as versatile nor as small.

[Digitom]

I have the D-Lux 5 with handgrip and electronic viewfinder (have to say that EVF is the Panasonic version - is half price of Leica one ).

I am very satisfied with the d-Lux 5 because I have also an old but very good Digilux 2 and I wanted a camera for "everyday with me" and with a nearly same good picture quality; means which could handle mixed light conditions (natual light and artificial light together) in a fine way, and also what would give me possibility of doing some "available light" photos in lowlight conditions up to ISO 800. Leica was 1st choice over Panasonic LX5 because the design - and also service of Leica is marvellous, and also I wanted to buy Lightroom 3, so that comes with the D-Lux 5 and so the price difference to Panasonic is relativated.

 

Just be aware of the fact the image stabilizer of the X1 is electronic, and the one in D-Lux 5 is optical! Just 1 bigger compromise you have to accept: depth of sharpness is bigger when using the D-Lux 5 because sensor is smaller then the APS-C sensor built in the X1. But it is possible to play a little bit with that sharpness when using Macro function or zoom to objects near to the lens.

 

Compared to your camera, the D-Lux 5 is really small, and has good possibilities to get very good photos out from a compact camera - but they do not look like typical compact camera pics!

[NZDavid]

D-Lux 5 is excellent. With its 24-90mm (35 format-equiv) lens it's more versatile than the X1, which has a 35mm (35 format-equiv) lens. In terms of field of view (FOV) the D-Lux 5 covers from 27º to 84º, while the X1 covers 64º. The D-Lux lens is also faster (f/2-3.3) as opposed to f/2.8 for the X1. The D-Lux 5 will let you focus much closer than the X1.

 

The X1 also lets you create slightly shallower depth of field (DOF), but by zooming in to the 90mm end with the D-Lux 5 you can also create slight background blur -- useful for portraits.

 

The wider DOF of the D-Lux 5 means it's easier to get more of the subject in focus. It's also faster ( the X1's slow AF speed is well known). I find autofocus can always be hit and miss, but perhaps that is because I am used to rangefinders which are more precise.

 

The X1's larger sensor means it's very good in low light, in fact probably the best performing compact available -- ISO 1600 and even ISO 3200 are quite useable. I wouldn't go above ISO 400 or ISO 800 in a pinch with the D-Lux 5. But how often do you need to anyway?

 

The manual controls for aperture and shutter speed on the X1 are absolutely brilliant, IMHO all cameras should have them! They do move too easily, though.

 

I find a separate optical viewfinder essential for both cameras, or it is impossible to see the image on the LCD in bright light, especially if wearing sunglasses.

 

The image quality of both cameras is excellent. If you are comparing pixels, I am sure the X1 will win, but the D-Lux 5 is still surprisingly good. There appear to have been real gains in small-sensor camera technology in the last few years (beats old GR-D, for example, at higher ISOs, and it handles contrasty scenes pretty well without as many blown-out highlights).

 

Differences between the D-Lux 5 and Panasonic LX-5 are minimal. Apart from badges and a slightly different grip, the software could be different. The D-Lux 5 always favors a wide aperture and fast shutter speed in P mode, which is a good Warranty should also be longer for the Leica, and you get Lightroom software.

 

In summary, I think you would find the D-Lux 5 a good choice, and definitely a Leica. Oh, it's a third the price of the X1!

 

In terms of precision and handling, however, I still love the M series rangefinders. And I still enjoy film. The digital Ms are pricey, obviously, but you are investing in a system that will last forever (lenses, at least). You might like to get hold of a film or digital M and just see if you like it. A dangerous path, though...Good luck!

[mmatos]

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my friends,

 

thank you all for the valuable advices!

 

@pharyngula,

when I bought the GF1, a friend of mine who lives in Singapore went to Mustafa store with me. He also have a Canon S90 for everyday shots.

as he lives there we could visit many spots and we both took pictures. When I saw the s90 pics, I thought the GF1 had much better results.

I understand they are different cameras, and I cant get GF1 results using s90, as I cant have SLR results using GF1. But GF1 is very close to it, so I would like to find for myself a pocket camera that could offer me as close as I could get to the sharpness and colors the 20mm pancake lens give me in GF1. But I like canon, a friend have an old 3.2MP s230 which I really like, and many friends are crazy like "buy the rebel!!" to me! haha. But I think I will buy the Dlux5. You can see the shots we took w/ s90 here , here , here , here and here .

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@Dan States,

I have not seen any X1 "in person", and I didnt know it is big. So its not what I am searching for now (and I almost asked my friend to bring one from Amsterdam to me, glad I didnt - but probably I will buy one this next year). I'm starting to study photo now, but I understood your technical points and I think (IMO) both DLux5 and the LX5 would deliver what I am searching. In the snapsort comparison, they say the panny shoots faster and this is something I consider important. I want a Leica, and will go for Dlux5 I think.

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@michael friedberg,

nice cams you have, congratulations! I would go for X1 instead of GF1 if I made more research before buy it - but in the future I go for a X1 too. I saw many sample pictures and I need one, haha. The sky is just BLUE, awesome. For now I really want a compact and fast one, where as I see the X1 does not fit.

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@Digitom,

humm good to know the panny evf would work for both cameras, now I am tempted to buy one. I have never used VF, only in my grandpa old olympus (film).

As I'm going to study and edit pictures I bought a macbook, and I was considering to buy the lightroom (in fact I already downloaded a trial version). So, the Leica is not much expensive as it comes with the license. The point of using the camera indoors and outdoors is something I liked too (I dont want to think the photo will be worse cause I am in the kitchen). Also, the possibility of doing macro pictures is great.

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@NZDavid,

your posts are really good always, thanks for comment here. So also I could take great landscape shots with the Dlux (when leave my panny at home ). This background blur (bokeh as I read) is something that makes beautiful pictures. It seems like bringing all attention to the subject of picture, and I consider an amazing feature. The GF1 does it, but not as I see on another leica pictures and maybe this is a problem with me and not the camera. I have to learn more.

I understand too I am trying to compare 2 different cameras when put Dlux5 and X1 together. But if the X1 were compact, could fit my needs for now. Its more a ROI than a comparison - if could get the X1, would not spend money in the Dlux5 now. But as I see, the Dlux5 will be the right choice for me.

I want to do only digital photo, cause I can take 10 pics and keep the ones I liked. Film cameras are for professionals, guys who dont miss shots like me

-

 

I am not rich, but I see this researching work before buy very valuable, so I wont end up with a camera that dont do what I wanted to. That's why I compared the X1 and Dlux5, if X1 were smaller could be it despites its price. I want a good camera, and dont want to buy any camera and sell it after months.

 

Guys, once again thanks for your advice, I will take a look in both panny and Leica in the store, but I think I will buy the Leica. It's a dream for me to have one, and I see I am starting with a really good camera that will fit my needs for now.

 

I wish you all good new year, and keep posting your work - it's always an inspiration for everybody.

 

cheers

 

Marco

[JeTexas]

Get the Panny LX5, so you have more money to spend on lenses for the GF1.

[mmatos]

Get the Panny LX5, so you have more money to spend on lenses for the GF1.

 

haha, thats a great advice!! thank you!!

[phancj]

The danger of looking at a camera like the X1 is once you really look at the image quality a lot of your other concerns and considerations go away, irregardless of its limitations.

 

Now I cannot accept anything less from a camera.

[Guest badbob]

The danger of looking at a camera like the X1 is once you really look at the image quality a lot of your other concerns and considerations go away, irregardless of its limitations.

Now I cannot accept anything less from a camera.

 

This is very true, and all you need to do is sew on a larger pocket.

[phancj]

Maybe its just me, but what I feel is if you have a mft cam then that should settle most things...if you want portability the cellphone cant be beat, and nowadays cellphone cams can be really good, I use the nokia N8 and it takes great pics equal to many P&Ss. Something like the x1 is special coz its IQ is very good (IMO astoundingly good) for its size and thats the thing for me.

 

Go to LR or PS and you can see immediately how pliable and superb the X1 DNGs are, and the OOC jpegs are useable too.

 

I feel that as an amateur the X1 offers me a lot of latitude for improvement in skills and I cannot blame the inadequacy of the sensor/lens but if I were using a smaller sensor I may reach its limitations in terms of IQ fairly quickly.

 

Even if you buy the Dlux5 now, there's a big chance that you'll feel its limitations in IQ fairly quickly and end up with the X1 anyway...end of the day I personally think that the IQ should be primary consideration, and I for one can overlook its inadequacies in terms of fixed lens, slow AF, etc,etc in favor of IQ.

[startover]

The IQ and low-light performance seem quite remarkable--leaves my previous camera (a Nikon D90) in the dust. I think I am not skilful enough to use an M9 effectively, so the X1 seemed just right.

[jsrockit]

The IQ and low-light performance seem quite remarkable--leaves my previous camera (a Nikon D90) in the dust.

 

I thought the X1 and the D90 share the same sensor?

[phancj]

Yes JS,

 

the same sensor as the D300 too, but from what I see the low light performance of the X1 is certainly better than the D300 at the same iso. I think the image processing algorithm is a big factor, and whats worse for Nikon is the darker regions become real murky and the X1 files in DNG are far more pliable than the Nikon files. I use the best Nikkor lenses so I think that part of the equation can be factored out.

 

With the X1 i can taken a photo that looks completely dark in LCD but upon lightening/shadows adjustments the image looks smooth and great but with the Nikon if I do the same the image sucks terribly murky and awful. I find with Nikon you have to expose very correctly for great results but with the X1 DNGs there is far more latitude.

 

Another thing: The Nikon method of noise suppression is horrendous, everything gets smeared.The X1 files are far more detailed at the same iso.

 

Also, sony which supposedly supplies sensors to these firms launch cameras using the same sensor that has possibly the most noise.