Elmarit 90mm

[ianm19700]

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Hi all

I have an old chrome Elmarit 90mm M mount lens which works perfectly on my M6 But on my M8 even though its sharp in the viewfinder the images are totally out of focus, my Hektor 135 M mount from the same vintage is perfectly sharp. According to the leica M8 manual it should be ok they state the Elmar 90 as not being usable and according to Ken Rockwell it should work just fine to

 

Any one got any ideas / thoughts on this

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

[UliWer]

If other lenses work well with you camera, it can't be the camera but must be the lens.

 

If it is way off, make sure the removabale lens head is properly fixed.

 

There may be another reason for the problem I have had with a 4/135 Elmar from the same time as the 90 Elmarit:

 

If you look at bayonet-end of the lens, you will see a metal cam which moves the litte wheel for the rangefinder. As my Elmar was completely out of focus I tried if something was wrong with this cam. When I touched it, i found out that some substance (dirt, metal, I don't know what) which didn't belong there, was sticking to it. After I had removed this substance, the focussing was precise. The substance caused the wheel for the rangefinder to react in a wrong way. It was not much but enough for a completely wrong focussing.

 

If it isn't such an easily cured problem I'd give it to a good specialist to look for it. It's a very nice and classical lens: sharp enough to rival most others but I cherish much it's subtle colours and fine bokeh:

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[WestMichigan]

Nice Image, UliWer.

Thanks for sharing it.

This elmarit looks like it should be on my radar.

Is the image you shared from an M8 or a Film Scan?

Sincerely

Richard in Michigan

[doubice]

Ian,

 

Sorry - it does not make sense that your Elmarit “works perfectly” on your M6 and is “totally out of focus” on your M8. I could understand a slight misalignment due to film thickness / sensor issues but not “totally out of focus” results. Particularly, if rangefinder images coincide identically in both viewfinders.

 

The only answer I may have is that the Elmarit’s rangefinder cam is not coupling correctly to the M8 rangefinder arm. But, as you say, the M8’s rangefinder couples and works as it should - or does it?

 

Best,

 

Jan

[epand56]

Ian,

I only had a problem with my M8 in more than three years of use and it was in the beginning. I discovered later that my rangefinder was vertically misalligned and this was when I bought my Elmarit 90/2.8. The camera was working good enough with other shortest lenses and I wasn't aware of the problem, When my focus was too much softer I thought it was due to focus shift. But when I bought the Elmarit 90 I discovered that I couldn't have any picture in focus with it. There were no way to make it focus on what I wanted to. A Leica dealer in Paris told me it sure was my rangefinder misalligned. Sent my M8 to Solms and it was fixed. And the Elmarit 90 became very, very sharp. It is now one of my favorite lenses. Oh, and after the cure all my other lenses worked quite better as well.

Hence, I suggest you to check your rangefinder allignement.

[ianm19700]

When i focus the lens so the rangefinder double image is perfect it is totally out of focus, if i move the focus so it should not be sharp it is

 

example here

 

90mm elmarit | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

All of my other lenses including my Hektor 135 are sharp

[doubice]

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The same question remains unanswered: if the lens focuses "perfectly" on an M6, it cannot be "totally out of focus" on an M8, if other lenses focus correctly on both bodies.

 

Jan

[tobey bilek]

Look for debris on the roller or RF coupler on the lens. Or a sticky RF arm in the camera.

 

 

I remember once mounting a 90 on my M6 and infinity focused at 15 feet. My heart sank, but I unmounted and remounted and it worked perfectly. The problem never came back.

I chalked it up to dirt.

[ianm19700]

This gets more strange, if i unscrew the removable lens section 1 and a half full turns then its in focus, im going to make up some shims ( as there are non on the lens ) and see if that works

 

Many thanks for all the ideas so far

 

Ian

[epand56]

Ian, I saw now we got friends on Flickr and sent you the same message I wrote here.

It is possible that your 90 focuses perfectly on the M6 and does not on the M8 since the vertical misalignment was a common problem on many brand new M8s.

When monsieur Jean-Marc of the Maison du Leica in Paris, after looking at my Elmarit 90, told me my rangefinder was sure out of alignment, he showed me that my same lens was perfectly working on another M8 he had in his shop. The picture you posted on Flicker shows the same issue I had before the realignment in Solms. Never had a single problem since.

[jaapv]

This gets more strange, if i unscrew the removable lens section 1 and a half full turns then its in focus, im going to make up some shims ( as there are non on the lens ) and see if that works

 

Many thanks for all the ideas so far

 

Ian

That won't work. It will correct the lens at one distance, but it won't cure the misfocussing at other distances. There have never been shims in that place, they are located internally. If I were you I would send the whole set, camera and lenses, to CRR or across the pond to Will van Manen for calibration.

[bocaburger]

Have you tried the lens on your M6 since you've had the M8? If not, try again. Physically-long lenses with removable heads like this and the 135 Elmar, Tele-Elmar v.1 drive the rangefinder roller by means of a tang that moves parallel to the lens axis (which is driven by the circular cam part of the helicoid. That tang is held to the inside of the lens barrel within a block, and is spring-loaded so it retracts when the lens is extended to focus. Debris sometimes clogs that mechanism, upsetting the relation between tang and cam, leading to improper focusing. A single drop of solvent-lubricant (WD40, Lock-Ease, etc.) and some working of the focus can often rectify the problem.

 

As others have said, tolerances of lenses can sometimes be inadequate for the demands of a digital sensor, but these present themselves as errors in millimeters. Enough to take the crispness/contrast off at close distance & wide apertures, but not render a subject totally out of focus. Anything more than that typically indicates a rangefinder adjustment issue is at least partly to blame. Since you have other lenses that focus sharply with the M8, that probably isn't the case here, although a combination of rangefinder misadjustment coupled with lens misadjustment can result in one lens seeming to be quite far off, while other lenses appear within acceptible sharpness.

 

Unless you have the gumption to do some controlled testing, I would let a pro have at it.

[ianm19700]

On sat i tried a VC 90mm lens on the M8 and its perfect, the Elmarit is not sharp at all , this must be the lens even though its sharp on my M6 . Strange

[jaapv]

So why don't you simply have it adjusted? It won't get any more focussed by writing about it here.

[scsambrook]

So why don't you simply have it adjusted? It won't get any more focussed by writing about it here.

 

True, although perhaps put a little harshly. However, the OP must still be wondering why it works fine on his M6 but so badly on the M8 (checking his Flickr example shows the error is indeed considerable) and is probably asking himself if adjusting it will make it worse on the M6. Those of us who are not experts in the technicalities of these mechanisms might be forgiven for having such fears . . .

[wda]

Lenses built before coding was introduced were built to film body standards. (No digital bodies existed then). I recently bought a mint 90mm Elmarit, not one of the last built, but it had been back to Solms for coding and, presumably, focus checking after the new coded flange was fitted. I paid a premium for the lens but felt it was well worthwhile because its performance on my M8 and M9 is impeccable. Perhaps there is a moral here; although coding isn't essential for a 90mm lens, a lens subsequently fitted with a new coded flange should meet the latest higher focusing standards having undergone recalibration.

[ho_co]

Ian, if the lens is adjusted to work on the M8, it will still work on the M6.

 

A couple people have pointed out here that because of film's thickness, a lens can appear adequately focused there. The flatness of the sensor of the M8 is the test. If the lens is out of focus on the M8, it's out of focus. LFI had a long article on this very topic a couple years ago where they said, among other things, that the M8 is a great test instrument; that the focus shift of the then-current 35/1.4 had been beneficial or at least no detriment with film, but that (paraphrasing) "if we [Leica] were designing the lens today, we would incorporate a floating element."

 

I had been using a 75/1.4 for close to thirty years when I got the M8. I had been delighted with the lens on film, but when I started using it on the M8, I found that it was badly back-focusing. With film, I had never seen the effect; but it was obvious with the accuracy of the M8's digital sensor.

 

Take or send it to Leica or DAG or Sherry Kräuter or your local Leica specialist. They'll tell you what it will cost to put it in order, and if you don't want it fixed, you're just out the inspection fee.

 

If you feel happy with it on film now, wait till you see it after adjustment.