adan Posted November 20, 2010 Share #1 Posted November 20, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is why I hope Leica avoids CMOS sensors in their flagship cameras for a l-o-o-n-g time. And it's why I don't want LV or video capability added to the M line - even if it is "invisible" to those of us who don't need it. It's going to stink up the still-photo performance just by being there. It's this nasty "weave" texture that shows up in images from every CMOS camera I've used: 5D, 5D2, D700, D300, Panny GH-1. Like horizontal and vertical banding overlapped - as though the image has had a "Burlap" texture filter run on it. The M8/M9 may be noisier overall - but at least it is a random, grain-like noise. If I absolutely, positively need long-lens capability, I guess I have to put up with it - but it has killed my plans for using a CMOS SLR as an M9 backup. Time to look for a used M8 and some IR filters.... Sample from a Canon 5D2 at ISO 6400 - but it shows up in shadows at ISOs as low as 200. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137298-cmos-pattern-noise-frosts-my-behind/?do=findComment&comment=1507801'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Hi adan, Take a look here CMOS pattern noise frosts my behind. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Nicoleica Posted November 20, 2010 Share #2 Posted November 20, 2010 I don't think that you can tar all CMOS cameras with the same brush Andy. Even at 12,800 and above, my D3s doesn't give me banding like that. Here's a 100% crop with no PP to illustrate this. And the second picture was at ISO 102,400, taken from a basic in-camera JPG. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137298-cmos-pattern-noise-frosts-my-behind/?do=findComment&comment=1507849'>More sharing options...
lct Posted November 20, 2010 Share #3 Posted November 20, 2010 ...but it shows up in shadows at ISOs as low as 200... Don't use much low isos but i've never got this from 200 to 800 iso with the 5D1 so far. What raw converter did you use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 20, 2010 Share #4 Posted November 20, 2010 I used to get a tesselation pattern with my DMR shots. Never seen anything like this from the D700, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted November 20, 2010 Share #5 Posted November 20, 2010 ... The M8/M9 may be noisier overall - but at least it is a random, grain-like noise. If I absolutely, positively need long-lens capability, I guess I have to put up with it - ... M8/M9 with Visoflex and long lenses ... ? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 20, 2010 Author Share #6 Posted November 20, 2010 Pete - sadly, no f/2.8 180 (or longer) lenses for the Viso, and it's a bit slow in operation for sports. Nicole - not to ruin your day, but it pops out at me in your examples: in the shaded musculature of the wrist, the OOF grays and greens bottom left of the tree, and a slight "vibration" to the bark details of the tree. lct - Camera Raw 5.x for this shot. I've tried the new LR3 "engine" which handles M9 noise better, but it seems to bring out or reveal the Canon "texture" even more than the old Adobe process. There was a reason I said "l-o-o-n-g time" and not "never" - this may be something that can be improved in the future (back-lit CMOS with less circuitry separating the pixels, or new AD conversion algorithms). I haven't actually seen any X-1 images either - to see if Leica and/or Jenoptik (or whoever handles the X-1 processing) do any better with a CMOS source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 20, 2010 Share #7 Posted November 20, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Did you try Capture One, Andy? I have little noise with it, even when disabling noise reduction. I don't shoot higher than 1600 iso though. Here 5D1, C1 v4, 800 iso, no NR. FWIW. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137298-cmos-pattern-noise-frosts-my-behind/?do=findComment&comment=1508119'>More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted November 20, 2010 Share #8 Posted November 20, 2010 Nicole - not to ruin your day, but it pops out at me in your examples: in the shaded musculature of the wrist, the OOF grays and greens bottom left of the tree, and a slight "vibration" to the bark details of the tree. Hi Andy, you certainly haven't ruined my day. I'm still alive, and so every day is a good day. As for the rest of your comment though, the examples I posted were the worst that I could find in my 'test shot' collection, at extreme ISO settings up to 4 stops higher than your example. I agree that they show noise, but nowhere near as visible as in your example. My first example was taken through a not too clean window, and the second was a test shot taken in a very dark room without any lights. In fact, it was not easy to even see the shop assistant in there with the eye. Although my M8 could not reach those ISO levels, making a serious comparison impossible, it did show noticeable 'checker-board' patterns in low light if underexposed, even at much lower ISO settings. But my point is still the same. There is great variation between different manufacturers and cameras, and I don't think that you can seriously claim that all CMOS sensors are bad based upon a small sample of mid-range models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 20, 2010 Author Share #9 Posted November 20, 2010 lct - That does seem to be an improvement. I'll have to look into C1 to see if the workflow/file-handling has improved since I last tried it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted November 20, 2010 Share #10 Posted November 20, 2010 Not all CMOS are created equal. That's what 6400 looks like from Canon in 2010. You don't get that harsh artifacting from a properly exposed frame on a Nikon D3 CMOS. I would suggest a smart, (meaning lite) application of Nik DFine in Photoshop CS3, 4, and 5 to knock down that noise. It's a remarkable tool. You can keep my M9.2/M10 video free as well. Jay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted November 20, 2010 Share #11 Posted November 20, 2010 This isn't as good as it could be, using a small file and such, but I hope you get the idea. Jay BTW What the hell's going on in this photo? Is it roller derby? What's with those pants? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137298-cmos-pattern-noise-frosts-my-behind/?do=findComment&comment=1508203'>More sharing options...
farnz Posted November 20, 2010 Share #12 Posted November 20, 2010 Jay, With respect I don't think DFine or other de-noise software is the answer; the second image shows less noise for sure but it's also lost detail, contrast, and colour. For example, compare the orange and yellow motif on the right hand side in both images and you can see that the orange part has actually changed colour. Andy's looking for a sensor that doesn't introduce this pattern noise in the first place and it seems that the only choices for him are CCD or perhaps Fovean. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted November 20, 2010 Share #13 Posted November 20, 2010 Andy's looking for a sensor that doesn't introduce this pattern noise in the first place and it seems that the only choices for him are CCD or perhaps Fovean. Pete. Is he? DFine on a full resolution file, again, carefully applied, then making adjustments to color, contrast, and sharpness after, may be a solution.. I'd rather make those adjustments afterward than look at those blue and red dots. Jay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 21, 2010 Author Share #14 Posted November 21, 2010 I won't lean too heavily on the Nikon vs. Canon thing. A fairer comparison to the 5D2 would probably be a D3x (20+ megapixels and all that). Let's just say that if and when Leica moves to CMOS, I hope it has improved over today's - in that high-resolution range. Farnz is correct in that I'd prefer improvements in the cameras/sensors over having to post-process. Jay - yep - and mixed roller derby at that. Women won 137-35 (but the men's team was new and inexperienced). Here's the fuller image (still about a 1.3x crop from full frame): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137298-cmos-pattern-noise-frosts-my-behind/?do=findComment&comment=1508415'>More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted November 21, 2010 Share #15 Posted November 21, 2010 I'm not trying to be antagonistic, or start a Canon/Nikon thing either, but the CMOS Nikon D3 sensor (D3 and D3s) does not and will not produce patterning like that on a properly exposed file, all the way up to, and past 6400 ISO, regardless of the amount of black or shadow in the picture. D3s, maybe. I know the D2x produced patterns just like the example, and they started around 1000/1250 ISO. I like to keep my ISO's under 4000, even with a D3, but I know I do far less noise reduction in post than I used to on previous Nikon DSLR NEF files. As of today, November 21st, 2010, Canon just does not compete at 6400. They haven't been in the high ISO conversation since the D3 was introduced. Again, I swear I'm not trying to be antagonistic... If you're stuck looking at files that have those type of patterning problems, and you need to massage them to make them do-able, DFine, or any noise reduction software package, LIGHTLY and carefully applied, and then most of the time dialed back a little, on a big 20mp+ file can make your entire life better. Just throwing this out there for someone with more knowledge than me, but how's the CMOS in the X1? Does it have the same Canon-y type patterns at high ISO's? Does it have potential? What do those files look like? Jay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted November 24, 2010 Share #16 Posted November 24, 2010 yes pattern noise is the issue with Canon, my E3 was the same. It seems those ills are well and truly cured with my E5 though, so theres hope at least if you stay away from 'C' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted November 24, 2010 Share #17 Posted November 24, 2010 Hi Andy. What little noise shows up in my D700 files is taken care of completely with Noise Ninja. If I leave it alone (the noise), say in a bw conversion, then it looks more film like. I hope you find something that will fix the problem to your satisfaction. Cheers, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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