Two Dead M9s

[fjheimann]

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Tina,

 

Can you excuse my ignorance but what is the device (I assume it is some form of brass thumb grip) you have attached to the back of your battle scarred M8.

 

Do you find it helps your grip significantly?

Regards

David

 

 

Got mine yesterday from LFI and will order 3 more for the rest of my Ms. Absolutely great for me. But not cheap..

Greetings

Franz

[Guest trond]

I don't know what you photograph, but I've found both of these to be great lenses for my work. They are both wonderfully sharp and draw so beautifully. The Canon performed slightly better than the Leica in Photodo's MTF tests:

Canon EF 35mm f/1.4 L USM

Leica Summilux-M Asph.35mm f/1.4

 

Looking at the Canon and Leica published MTF for the two lenses shows that the Summilux 35 stays above 90% for the central 20mm image area at f1.4 and 10lp/mm.

 

Correspondingly, the EF 35 f1.4L falls to 65% in the same central area, and never goes above 75% in the dead center.

 

The Summilux 35 has a higher MTF (above 85%) corner to corner at f 2.8 and 10 lp/mm, than the Canon 35mm f1.4L at f 8.0 (80%) corner to corner.

 

The Summilux 35 10 lp/mm MTF stays above 90% corner to corner at f 5.6, while the canon EF 35 f1.4L never reaches this value in any part of the image at any aperture.

 

This is a huge difference both wide open at f 1.4 and stopped down to 2.8 or further.

 

The Summilux 35 is a vastly superior lens at any aperture, compared to any other 35mm f 1.4 lens for 35mm format.

 

Source:

 

http://software.canon-europe.com/files/documents/EF_Lens_Work_Book_10_EN.pdf

 

http://us.leica-camera.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=file_4839.pdf

 

I also believe that the Leica MTFs are measured, while the Canon are simulated.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[vanhulsenbeek]

I also believe that the Leica MTFs are measured, while the Canon are simulated.

 

 

Oeps Better put on you flameproof suit!

[zlatkob]

The Summilux 35 is a vastly superior lens at any aperture, compared to any other 35mm f 1.4 lens for 35mm format.

....

I also believe that the Leica MTFs are measured, while the Canon are simulated.

 

Photodo offers an objective third-party comparison of these two lenses, presumably conducted on the same testing equipment. Here is Photodo's graph for the Leica 35/1.4 Asph.:

http://www.magezinepublishing.com/equipment/images/equipment/SummiluxM-Asph35mm-f14-871/large/LEIM3514.gif

And here is their graph for the Canon 35/1.4 lens:

http://www.magezinepublishing.com/equipment/images/equipment/EF-35mm-f14-L-USM-18/large/CAEF3514LUSM.gif

Looking at these charts, the lenses seem to have very comparable performance at f/1.4 and at f/8, at center and out toward the edges.:confused:

[jaapv]

Oeps Better put on you flameproof suit!

 

No need, Sander, Leica's are computer-generated as well. Pitying you guys up North form here

[jaapv]

It really is posts like this which is making me put off any decision to upgrade to an M9. Fortunately, my M8 continues (as indeed it should) to produce excellent results. I would like to have a camera system which provides better high iso results and the logical step given my intestment in Leica M lenses would be up to an M9 but frankly I do not feel like playing russian roulette with GBP 5,000 when I can obtain a complete Nikon or Canon system (body and lenses) for the same price and which from my research have more consistent quality control. If I do get to the point where high iso performance really is a deal breaker I think I would have to leave the Leica fold and go with either of those two systems. Shame really, I like rangefinders but I like having products which work and manufacturers who are more customer (rather than technology) focussed.

 

LouisB

You shouldn't let threads like these put you off, Louis.

They are a muddle of confused issues, emotional responses, misunderstandings and non-straight thinking.

For instance:

1.Leica's CQ is failing continuosly and they dont even look at the cameras.

Reality: From many threads we know that each and every camera comes with 100-150 test exposures. So they are tested exthaustively. That means that the majority of out-of-the-box failures either occurred in transit (like probably the OP's shutter fault, that happens if the camera is slammed hard enough in a vertical sense (i.e. dropped).

or are early failures which cannot be picked up by QC like the SD card error of the OP which almost always is a bent pin in the SD slot or a connector worked loose (see transit failure). These early failing are exactly the 20 failings per million parts that are built into the camera btw. It goes for sensor cracks as well. How can you test for an event that is going to occur in use?:confused:Still, funny things like a loose top or a lens with a 90 degree focus ring engraving should not slip through - but human beings are not 100% infallible. It is the price for handcrafted gear.

2. Leicas are less reliable out of the box than Canikon/Iphones/etc.

It may well be true. One post quoted a failure rate of 20 pmillion as Industry standard.

The form of the number says it all. That may well be true for robot-produced mass items (like the SD slot;)) produced in millions, but until somebody finds the number for hand-assembled hybrid mechanical-electronic devices it tells us exactly nothing. Don't forget, a robot produces thousands of identical mistakes before being found out by QC, a human chain of assembly will produce fewer, but all different ones, making the checks far more complicated and far less reliable. In other words - it cannot be in the same order.

3. Repairs being held up by parts shortage. Their planning is imbecilic and is customer neglect.

Well, it is pretty clear what happened. A company like Leica must estimate the number of parts needed for the anticipated production and service run. Relatively small numbers too, compared to the giants in the field. And then they have a runaway success - like the M9, which plays havoc with all estimates. So they have to expand the supply chain, order extra from suppliers who must fit it between large orders. That takes time - and produces major hiccups, like we are seeing now.

[Guest trond]

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Photodo offers an objective third-party comparison of these two lenses, presumably conducted on the same testing equipment. Here is Photodo's graph for the Leica 35/1.4 Asph.:

http://www.magezinepublishing.com/equipment/images/equipment/SummiluxM-Asph35mm-f14-871/large/LEIM3514.gif

And here is their graph for the Canon 35/1.4 lens:

http://www.magezinepublishing.com/equipment/images/equipment/EF-35mm-f14-L-USM-18/large/CAEF3514LUSM.gif

Looking at these charts, the lenses seem to have very comparable performance at f/1.4 and at f/8, at center and out toward the edges.:confused:

 

Yes, zlatkob, you are right!

 

The Canon even shows a better MTF at f 1.4 than the Leica Summilux in the Photodo graphs!

 

I do not have any good explanation to this, but my own copies of both lenses, seem to confirm the MTF from both manufacturers.

 

Photodo is talking abort "weighted MTF", but I have not found out what that means.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[Guest trond]

No need, Sander, Leica's are computer-generated as well. Pitying you guys up North form here

 

Thanks Sander, Jaapv for putting that one right!

 

This was my misconception.

 

I am just eating my hat now for a very late lunch in Spain.

 

Just back from a four hour field trip in the sun with the M9, so the hat does not taste very good!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[Guest trond]

Well, it is pretty clear what happened. A company like Leica must estimate the number of parts needed for the anticipated production and service run. Relatively small numbers too, compared to the giants in the field. And then they have a runaway success - like the M9, which plays havoc with all estimates. So they have to expand the supply chain, order extra from suppliers who must fit it between large orders. That takes time - and produces major hiccups, like we are seeing now.

 

Dear Jaapv,

 

Your description is probably quite accurate as to what happened!

 

I do not think that Leica or anyone else could have foreseen the success of the M9.

 

Of course Leica had dreams, but I think the M9 even exceeded their wildest fantasies!

 

I for myself, never liked the M8 because it was not a full frame.

 

Sticking to my M2, M3 and M6, i used Nikon and Canon for digital.

 

When the rumors of the M9 started to surface, I immediately ordered one from my favorite dealer in Oslo, I was probably first in line in Norway, except for one of my colleagues that got his on the 09.09.2009 from a dealer in Austria.

 

I do not regret getting the M9 a single second, it is a great machine, and has been without any problems so far (7500 frames on the counter now).

 

I sold my Nikon D700 and Canon 1Ds-3, but kept the Canon 5D2 for high ISO, sports, macro and long lenses, for everything else I use the M9.

 

The M9 + WATE even replaces the Canon TSE lenses for landscape/panoramas.

 

However, after dealing with Leica CS far too many times, misfocusing lenses in all cases, no problem with the M9, I see things that disappoints me very much.

 

Maybe this problem is inherent in the RF-design, or the M9 is so good that Leica are not able to calibrate new lenses with sufficient accuracy!?

 

Maybe this is expecting too much, that lenses should focus accurately to within the resolution limit of the M9?

 

I think this is an "Achilles heel" for Leica, and it needs to get fixed in some way or the other, either by QC, or by a different RF-design in a future M-camera.

 

For Leica to take back four out of ten lenses in my case, three of them two times, must cost a lot of time and money, that could be spent much better in other areas.

 

Maybe we could even get a slightly lower price as I am sure this costs 2-300 Euros each time Leica needs to take back a lens for calibration under warranty.

 

In Norway this usually always work the second time, since consumer law, gives the customer a right to a new item if the repair fails the second time:D.

 

Leica products are great designs with the highest performance available today.

 

I just wish they would work as designed without having to send them back for servicing several times before they work as specified.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[charlesphoto99]

I guess we'll just have to disagree about this. I'm basing my opinion on personal experience. I've been using Leica cameras professionally for over 30 years and have always been impressed with their quality control. From the M3 to the M9, I've sent mine in only for CLA. I had the shutter stick on my M8 after I dropped it on a marble floor in India. Leica repaired and returned it quickly: My M8 looks like this

 

 

I don't regret buying anything with a red dot on it. But of course, YMMV!

 

Tina

 

Now this is truly amazing! I feel embarrassed by the nearly mint state of my year old M9 and previous M8's after seeing this. But no travel for me now that I have a nearly two year old. Priorities change.

 

Anyway, this is what Leica needs to pick up on. Forget effing Seal, they should be using Tina as a Leica spokesperson. Use a photograph of her camera overlaid on one of her lovely travel photos and a small portrait of her and a tagline something like "Leica: for the true marks of a professional."

[Guest trond]

My M8 looks like this

 

 

 

Tina

 

Tina, your M8 looks awesome!

 

I try to take good care of my M9, protecting it a all times.

 

However, your M8 looks so much cooler!

 

It must have seen a lot of action and excitement!

 

Being a mere mortal, to me this looks out of this world, if it is "normal" use!

 

Just so great, obviously Leicas can take a lot of beating!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[hoppyman]

John, you incident that you are referring to did not happen. The customer's dealer said that Leica may be shut down for two weeks and the repair may take eight weeks. What actually happened then is that the customer contacted CS directly (as suggested in the thread) and the repair was performed in ONE week with one more week for the transport back and forth in Europe. You can read the posts by the customer in that thread.

 

Customer Service

.......However, the worst thing is the poor CS that follows. I wonder how long Mercedes would have been in business if their vehicles broke down on the highway and their response was we are on holiday so send us your vehicle and in about 8 weeks we may get it fixed.

[barjohn]

Geoff,

 

If that is true in regards to that specific example, then I stand corrected as far as that example goes. However, there are many posts throughout where Leica has taken many weeks to months for repairs.

[ozdavid]

Jaap,

 

Thank you for your thoughts as to what may have caused the faults in the 2 bodies I was given. I had assumed that if they'd been damaged in transit you'd have seen it in the whole shipment, but on reflection you may well be right. As I've said before, I am getting a very friendly and helpful response from Solms (as I have always been fortunate to receive) and am hopeful of receiving a working body soon. Certainly, I am looking forward with great anticipation to being able to use and enjoy my M9.

 

Tina,

 

Thank you for that link. I think that your work is truly awesome - it provides great inspiration for an amateur such as me and the state of your M8 is not only testimony to the real strength of the camera but suggests a thousand stories behind the work you do. May you continue to enjoy it in good health.

 

David

[Doc Henry]

Hello everyone,Hi David,

More than 4000 visits to this thread in a few days. This is a record.

 

I bring you my personal opinion:

Since October 2009, my Leica dealer has sold 7 M9 and he had no problem.I am in France.

All the cameras that he received are working perfectly.My M9 also since March 2010.

The David's problem is first bad luck and probably due in part to the transport from Solms to Australia.

It belongs to the dealer to solve this problem and ask new cameras for you.

That said, Leica offers a warranty and any defective camera go back to Solms.

I also have an M8 still takes great pictures for over a year.

I have friends who bought the Nikon and Canon and they also had problems with their cameras,they all return to the importer.

Regards

Henry

[NZDavid]

I agree that it's posts like this that unfortunately deter potential M9 buyers from pulling the trigger, me included. I looked at one earlier this year but decided it was simply too expensive for me at that time. I'm not disappointed; I very much enjoy my film Leicas and compact digitals.

 

I am also not sure if the M9ti has anything to do with it, but can fully sympathize with the frustration of those who just want a reliable, practical camera and instead are greeted with the spectacle of the company salivating over an absurdly over-priced over-the-top collector's edition show pony camera.

 

But I am also not sure if it is all really Leica's fault. Rather, I suspect it is the fault of people's unrealistic expectations in the digital age. Nothing with a computer attached is built to last. Computers have many admirable qualities, but reliability and robustness aren't among them. Top-of-the-line digital cameras cost more than twice as much as their equivalents in the film age. But you don't get twice as much reliability -- and nor would you expect to. Reliability is about on the same level as a cheapie compact. I'm not talking about the shutter, the viewfinder or the mechanical part, but the digital computerized componentry -- which is always where the problems seem to arise.

 

This really shouldn't be surprising either. All new technology is constantly evolving; producing new features, not making existing ones more reliable, is the priority. One therefore has to seriously ask how much money to spend on a product with a known limited lifespan.

[mgreernz]

It's all due to the distance between Solms and the antipodes. Or the careless people who ship our M9s and drop the boxes. Or because consumer electronics should be expected to fail. Or because we're all being nasty to all those nice Leica people.

 

Bollocks.

[hoppyman]

John I have found that no-one's attitude and opinions (positive or negative) have ever changed based on posts here and I try now to be careful to only quote specific facts if I respond to posts. My personal experience with Leica Camera and Customer Service in particular has always been exemplary.

 

For my mind it is appropriate that people should factually report any issues that they encounter and the resolutions here. Some posts become emotive and unfair in my view and the facts get distorted or opinions represented as fact.

 

In any event here are the complete posts from member Yanidel who reported the problem and its resolution in that other thread.

 

Geoff, If that is true in regards to that specific example, then I stand corrected as far as that example goes. However, there are many posts throughout where Leica has taken many weeks to months for repairs.

.............................

(Yanidel's first post)

"My M9 shutter has had a strange behavior lately. It seems that for about 20% of shots, the blades of the shutter jam (see picture below). I can still use the camera but I lose the metering now and then since the white blade is hidden. Strangely, by just hitting my camera in the palm of my hand, the blades go back to the correct position, the same happens if I slightly touch them with a finger.

I called on my dealer today and Solms does not take any repairs for the next two weeks, and then it is an estimated 6 weeks repair time. I really don't want to be without my camera so long. Paid 5500 euros 9 months ago, I don't understand why it takes so long."

................................................

(Yanidel's responding post later in the thread)

"Just got my M9 back from Solms today. Shutter replaced and body CLA'd.

I followed Chris advice (thanks!) and contacted Andrea who was very helpful. Repair took a week, and another one for the back and forth shipping.

Anyway, thanks all for your suggestions and advices on this thread. So happy, now I can finally test that 50mm Summilux Asph that I have on exchange ;)"

[alexmann]

But I am also not sure if it is all really Leica's fault. Rather, I suspect it is the fault of people's unrealistic expectations in the digital age. Nothing with a computer attached is built to last. Computers have many admirable qualities, but reliability and robustness aren't among them. Top-of-the-line digital cameras cost more than twice as much as their equivalents in the film age. But you don't get twice as much reliability -- and nor would you expect to. Reliability is about on the same level as a cheapie compact. I'm not talking about the shutter, the viewfinder or the mechanical part, but the digital computerized componentry -- which is always where the problems seem to arise.

 

This really shouldn't be surprising either. All new technology is constantly evolving; producing new features, not making existing ones more reliable, is the priority. One therefore has to seriously ask how much money to spend on a product with a known limited lifespan.

 

I'm not sure that the M9, or the M8, has a 'known' limited lifespan. My feeling is that digital imaging systems are now coming of age. Especially in the M9. I held off for years while the megapixel race was in full flow. Now is a good time to jump in IMO, a feeling I think is equally shared by so many other new M9 owners. It's the camera we've all been waiting for which is why it's been such a runaway success. Solid state electronics are in fact generally robust, the camera is extremely well built and delivers medium format quality images. How much better does it need to be? It does more than any of us could have dreamt of just five years ago.

There have been teething problems, we all know that, but the backup, while a little slow at times due to this sudden success, is genuine in it's intent. The passport system means that if anything goes wrong, at all, in your first year of ownership you will be looked after. The software is update-able. DNG files are future proof. Leica will still service any of your mechanical M system cameras, why not the first digitals in 20 years time?

The only way I can see the situation being more confidence-inspiring is if Leica were to make the M9 more modular in it's construction and therefore eminently up-gradeable. We would then be able to send our battered old bronze and magnesium bodies in to have the latest components/ sensors/ electronics installed in Leica's new upgrade wing. Then of course everyone would want one:) ....

Alex

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[alexmann]

.. bronze and magnesium bodies in to have the latest components/ sensors/ electronics installed in Leica's new upgrade wing. Then of course everyone would want one:) ....

Alex

 

Sorry, that should read brass and magnesium alloy

Regards

Alex