Future of Film

[bill]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I consider myself first, last, and always a film photographer. The experience of using film and manual, mechanical film cameras is part of my identity, and therefore strongly emotional. Not having film available for the variety of film cameras I use would make my photographic experience the poorer.

 

Not that I don't want to get an M9 at some point, but I have yet to resonate in any significant way with digital equipment and processes, and quite frankly resent how digital technology has hollowed out the film market to the point that we even have to consider that film may someday no longer be available. Losing Kodachrome is bad enough, but losing film altogether and with it the ability to shoot both film and digital would be too great a loss to bear.

 

+1, squared. I've said it before, and I will say it again. Film has soul, and that soul resonates with my own.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest nafpie]

Please stop dumping pretty pictures in every thread you contribute to - it's egocentric and selfish.

 

LoL.

 

What the hell could be wrong to post photos in a photo forum?

[Guest nafpie]

+1, squared.

 

1² = 1.

 

[bill]

LoL.

 

What the hell could be wrong to post photos in a photo forum?

 

Couldn't agree with you more.

 

Here's the Photo Forum

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest nafpie]

Couldn't agree with you more.

 

I know.

[pico]

I don't talk a lot about my work here, but one of the things with which I've become somewhat disillusioned is the concentration on fostering discontent with what a person already owns. I've brainstormed ideas on how to convince people that their existing cellphone (for instance) is inadequate, and how to harness peer-pressure amongst impressionable teenagers to force them (and all their friends) to change that cell once a year as a minimum. [...]

 

You may have read the following book, but in case - the most excellent study of persuasion I have read.

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion - Robert B. Cialdini

 

It has many cases, and the social aspects are very interesting.

[WigglePig]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1² = 1.

 

 

also, (-1)² = 1.

 

But I agree with the sentiments, hence I am in the process of selling my M8 and have bought an M6 to go with my M2.

[Nikkor AIS]

Thanks John, Stepten and Jaybob. I really apprecite the support. This thread inspired me to share the beginning of my love of film. And in a thread of the future of film I really think it's important to illustrate what where talking about. While some feel Im "dumping" images into this thread to stroke my ego. In reallity I really feel that "sharing" some images about the medium in question film is reasonable.

 

 

Getting film camera's into the hands of young folks is the the best way to keep the medium of film alive. While Im doing what I can to keep film alive and shooting as much as possible. As other have said it's a drop in the bucket. Still enough drops in any bucket and the it's soon filled. What film needs is slick and hip advertising campaign to make a must have, and a must do.

Given the intensive labor involved with film it's an uphill battle to be sure. But not an insurmountable task.

 

I agree with Plasticman in that the presure for young people to feel inadaquate with there little devices and buy the latest thing is intense. . Getting the young folks to buy in when the camera's nearly last for ever is a tough sell to be sure. But perhaps that "drive" to have the newest thing can work for film. After all, every roll of film is new, unless your double exposing it.

 

I think the key is in B+W film which everyone knows, is the coolest thing ever.

 

 

Getting film camera's and darkrooms back in to the schools and providing introduction/instruction to B+W photography is the key.

I cant help but think that larger companies of film camera's and film manufactures could be doing more.

B+W photography is best learned hands on. Im living testiment to the principle of geting them while there young and you got them for life.

 

Branding now a days is huge with young folks and getting "the brand" of the film out and putting it on there clothes would seem to be part of the campaign. And while some might not see the point, showing images taken with film on the internet on forums like this in open discusions is part of the plan. And of course getting some young hot sexy chick "might" work

 

I can see it now.. She says pouting lips as gentle touches the guys shoulder holding a leica "is that a film camera? "your so hot".

 

It's a cant miss:p.

 

Than you got a have a movie come out where the hero uses a film camera and gets all the chicks. Or have girl uses a film camera and is totally cool and sexy.

 

"Flm is cool"

 

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-24-14-AFS-vs-28-14-AF-D/DSC75722/990758997_dAfTN-XL.jpg

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-24-14-AFS-vs-28-14-AF-D/DSC82962/994215191_HFVKz-X3.jpg

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/PC-pictures/910053/847588463_ZiogK-L.jpg

 

Gregory

 

 

 

 

"If you want to understand the new first you have to understand the old."

[AlanG]

I don't talk a lot about my work here, but one of the things with which I've become somewhat disillusioned is the concentration on fostering discontent with what a person already owns.

 

In the US, consumer spending is a large part of the economy. This is nothing new, a long time ago US auto makers worked under the idea of "planned obsolescence" and tried to have consumers replace cars very rapidly. The reduction in consumer spending and consumer confidence is a large reason why we went into a recession. Regarding planned obsolescence - one can buy a cheap but adequate bike from a discount store for $85. If maintained properly, it should be serviceable for quite a while. But for the average consumer, once the derailleurs or brakes go out of adjustment, they'll throw it away as it will cost $75 or more for a bike shop to do basic adjustments on it and more for an overhaul. The same marketing and peer pressures that lead a kid to upgrade an MP3 player is at play when someone "needs" stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops.

 

From my standpoint, the overall cost of buying a new camera body every three years or so (and keeping 2 older ones as back-ups) is justified by the steady improvement in quality, processing speed, and features that I've been getting. Considering I no longer pay for film and processing, my spending is way down from when I shot film. I also only require one system, whereas when I shot film, I used 3 or 4 systems, plus miscellaneous cameras, a darkroom and scanners. A lot of other commercial shooters at one time had 4x5, 6x6, and 35 but can now get by with only 35mm digital. So while some camera manufacturers benefited others did not.

 

Considering that digital has no cost for film and processing, I think it is also easier even for some consumers to upgrade periodically and still have a lower total expenditure on photography over a given period of time than they may have had using film. Camera companies are now seriously involved in R&D and this has to be paid for some how. Whereas Deardorf simply kept making the same thing until they went out of business. It may seem wasteful but this is how technology evolves. Otherwise, we'd all still be drawing on cave walls.

[AlanG]

Thanks John, Stepten and Jaybob. I really apprecite the support. This thread inspired me to share the beginning of my love of film. And in a thread of the future of film I really think it's important to illustrate what where talking about. While some feel Im "dumping" images into this thread to stroke my ego. In reallity I really feel that "sharing" some images about the medium in question film is reasonable.

 

 

Getting film camera's into the hands of young folks is the the best way to keep the medium of film alive. While Im doing what I can to keep film alive and shooting as much as possible. As other have said it's a drop in the bucket. Still enough drops in any bucket and the it's soon filled. What film needs is slick and hip advertising campaign to make a must have, and a must do.

Given the intensive labor involved with film it's an uphill battle to be sure. But not an insurmountable task.

 

I agree with Plasticman in that the presure for young people to feel inadaquate with there little devices and buy the latest thing is intense. . Getting the young folks to buy in when the camera's nearly last for ever is a tough sell to be sure. But perhaps that "drive" to have the newest thing can work for film. After all, every roll of film is new, unless your double exposing it.

 

I think the key is in B+W film which everyone knows, is the coolest thing ever.

 

 

Getting film camera's and darkrooms back in to the schools and providing introduction/instruction to B+W photography is the key.

I cant help but think that larger companies of film camera's and film manufactures could be doing more.

B+W photography is best learned hands on. Im living testiment to the principle of geting them while there young and you got them for life.

 

Branding now a days is huge with young folks and getting "the brand" of the film out and putting it on there clothes would seem to be part of the campaign. And while some might not see the point, showing images taken with film on the internet on forums like this in open discusions is part of the plan. And of course getting some young hot sexy chick "might" work

 

I can see it now.. She says pouting lips as gentle touches the guys shoulder holding a leica "is that a film camera? "your so hot".

 

It's a cant miss:p.

 

Than you got a have a movie come out where the hero uses a film camera and gets all the chicks. Or have girl uses a film camera and is totally cool and sexy.

 

"Flm is cool"

 

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-24-14-AFS-vs-28-14-AF-D/DSC75722/990758997_dAfTN-XL.jpg

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-24-14-AFS-vs-28-14-AF-D/DSC82962/994215191_HFVKz-X3.jpg

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/PC-pictures/910053/847588463_ZiogK-L.jpg

 

Gregory

 

 

 

 

"If you want to understand the new first you have to understand the old."

 

This is an age when any kid can shoot a video on a cell phone and instantly share it with people across the world. I don't think you are going to get them as excited to see a b/w image "magically" appear in a tray of developer as you and I were.

[pop]

I don't think you are going to get them as excited to see a b/w image "magically" appear in a tray of developer as you and I were.

 

Some young people I know were completely overwhelmed by exactly that experience. It comes as a shock to them that you can do material things outside of a factory hall.

[Stealth3kpl]

And of course getting some young hot sexy chick "might" work

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/members/55096-albums3896-picture3637.html

[Nikkor AIS]

While you can get by with a DSLR it hardly replaces a 4X5 film camera, let alone an 8X10.

And Like I said if your making large photographic prints "film is still high tech". Much more than digital. Than you have the whole reliablity issue with modern digtial camera's. Not just with the camera's themselves but with the technology that supports it like computers/ hard drives and cards.

And the long term storage of are digtal files may yet give us a bite in the ass before long. If it hasnt done so already.

 

And while the analogy of technolgy moving forward is interesting believe it's misplaced in this instance. You repeating the talking points for digital and Im not buying it.

Take a Leica MP and roll of 100 T-max and make a print 6X4 feet and do the same with a file from the M9, and tell how how and mighty digital is. Like I said on little sceen everything looks good. Even camera phones.

I have shots taken with 24 mega pixal Canon 5D2 that begin to "show there sqaures" with enlargements as small as 16-20. The truth is from what I have seen first hand 35 mm just dosnt cut it for huge prints.

 

 

And running mutibal formats is still required if truth be told. Film or digital. DSLR/rangefinder ...OO . No " one" format can be all things to all people at all times.

And in my experinece size matters. Both pro and con. The beauty of 35 mm is in it's portablitiy and quick handling . Where as If you want to shoot product/ or Karsh type of portraits large format is the way to go.

 

 

 

Im not saying that film is better than digital in all areas. No one can deny that digtial has it's place. I find it usefull to photograph my prints from film and show them on the internet:p. Seriously I love my two D3 and someday hope to get a M9 when they become availible. But for now film is still hold trendous advantages over the digtial file.

 

No one is putting gun to your head or your dog and saying "Shoot film or we are going to kill this dog:p" . It's a choice. You see the value or you dont.

Im off to shoot some film, Im leaving D3's at home today.

Im going to drop off at the lab and pick up 30 rolls of film that Iv had souped and scanned. I nearly vibrating from the anticapation of seeing my shots..

 

 

 

There is another thing about shooting film for me. One of my pals runs the lab and has been a friend since juinor high. It's nice to have some human interaction now and again. Another one of the nice things about film is the seeing old friends at the lab. And knowing that my continuing support of shooting C-41 and getting it souped and scanned there helps put food on his table for him and his family is awsome. For me the human element of shooting film is not easily dimissed by the bottom line.

 

 

 

 

 

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-24-14-AFS-vs-28-14-AF-D/DSC8284/1000961492_JC7w5-XL.jpg

 

gregory

[Sailronin]

Just this year I sold my two 4x5 cameras and 8x10 camera, no room (or time) for developing and printing. I thought I was out of the film game completely then last week purchased a Hasselblad 501cm kit, new, in the box from my photo shop for less than my 24mm Elmar!

 

Just couldn't go without any (>35mm) film cameras. Oh well, hard to break old habits.

 

Dave

[plasticman]

You may have read the following book, but in case - the most excellent study of persuasion I have read.

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion - Robert B. Cialdini

 

It has many cases, and the social aspects are very interesting.

 

Thanks Pico for the recommendation - but seriously, I've read so many of these books, and what life and having a kid is teaching me is that we're already persuading people to be discontented way too well these days.

 

In spite of what Alan says, the turnover of products and personal discontent and status anxiety is accelerating at a dizzying pace.

 

And obsolescence is built-in several generations ahead of an existing product now: I've personally seen prototypes for future cellphones that iteratively introduce new technologies that could be available tomorrow, but which will be dripped out instead over the next few years.

 

It's a slightly disillusioning experience, and one of the reasons I love the completeness of film Ms - they weren't built to be upgraded after two years.

[Adarsha]

ok Film yes, definitely! But... as on the first page there was a plug for the M6 over the M7 can anyone just explain why th M6 is a better camera than the M7? please?

[Guido]

Just couldn't go without any (>35mm) film cameras. Oh well, hard to break old habits.

Used Phase One digital backs with Hasselblad V mount have become quite affordable nowadays...

[bill]

ok Film yes, definitely! But... as on the first page there was a plug for the M6 over the M7 can anyone just explain why th M6 is a better camera than the M7? please?

 

There's a short answer to that... It isn't.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Adarsha]

There's a short answer to that... It isn't.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

So given a choice between the two you'd go for the M7 then Bill? I want a film M now too, but which? M6 or M7? sqweeeee can't decide!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pgk]

But for now film is still hold trendous advantages over the digtial file.

What have I missed for the last 5 years:eek:.

 

Ummm. Actually, absolutely nothing. Please do continue to use film if you prefer it, but don't justify doing so by irrelevant and inaccurate statements. I simply can't be bothered responding to all the points raised in the last post, however:

 

"While you can get by with a DSLR it hardly replaces a 4X5 film camera, let alone an 8X10." Nor did a 35mm SLR - not sure what your point is.

 

"if your making large photographic prints "film is still high tech". Much more than digital." Depends how you define 'tech' doesn't it - and both do still require electricity but use it in rather different ways.

 

"Than you have the whole reliablity issue with modern digtial camera's. Not just with the camera's themselves but with the technology that supports it like computers/ hard drives and cards." Such technology supports far more than just imaging - like the electricity supply for example;)? So film workflow relies on computers too. Not a good argument.

 

"I have shots taken with 24 mega pixal Canon 5D2 that begin to "show there sqaures" with enlargements as small as 16-20. The truth is from what I have seen first hand 35 mm just dosnt cut it for huge prints." Well I have prints larger than 16x20 from a 5D2 that don't show squares:). And really huge prints have always demanded larger formats and this remains the case for both film and digital.

 

"But for now film is still hold trendous advantages over the digtial file." Well I cannot think of any of my numerous photographic colleagues who would agree with you I'm afraid, no, not one.

 

"Another one of the nice things about film is the seeing old friends at the lab" If that is, you have a local lab. All the ones near me have long gone although its still possible to get the odd film processed in at least one place (digitally printed though).

 

I chatted to the owner of my local photographic dealership today about film. He said that whilst he had always thought that film would last out his lifetime despite digital - today he is no longer so sure. Sales are now very low.

 

And there are now two real problems with film's continued existence in the long term.

 

The first in the fact that whilst processing it is not high tech, manufacturing it most certainly can be. How long this will be economic is the real question. Fortunately B&W film production may well survive with relatively small numbers of users and will, I suspect, outlast colour.

 

The second is that whilst there are many film cameras currently available, very few are now actually being made, and relying on aging equipment whilst acceptable for a fair time will eventually become more of a problem - again its about dwindling numbers of users.

 

Looking at film through rose-tinted glasses and with nostalgic tendencies is pleasant enough (I still own - though not use - a film camera or two because of their history) but has a tendency to cloud more objective views. Few of us (film users) saw the dramatic and fast ascendancy of the digital photographic era coming as it did. It appears that some still don't want to accept that film may even eventually disappear.

 

So to go back to the OP whose question was I believe, whether to invest in film cameras, and looking back at Sailronin's previous post, my suggestion is to decide whether you really do like film enough to invest money in film equipment. I hope that film will continue to be available, albeit in dwindling varieties, for quite some time, but there is a real likelihood that it will eventually become available only from specialist suppliers and that the available film types will continue to reduce.

 

Also, please don't fall into the trap of believing that it is somehow 'better' than digital; my personal opinion is that it that for me it is not and this is based on my own testing and observations, digital quite simply provides me with (far) better images for the types of photography which I undertake. Film is however quite different, and its entire workflow is far more physical and has many attractions (I still think that watching a B&W print 'develop' is a magical experience despite being heartily sick of darkrooms!). I personally won't invest in film cameras again (I've tried to once and realised that the cause was actually nostalgia and the reality was not acceptable).