Improve sharpness with burst shooting?

[h00ligan]

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I'm not saying one would use it all the time, but I don't think tech advancements are a bad thing in certain circumstances...like action.

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[prk60091]

I think I see what is going on here. There is a misunderstanding on some persons parts due to their unfamiliarity with the camera.

 

There is a continuos mode (3 shots in succession) AND there is an exposure bracket mode separate and apart from the continuous mode.

 

The OP wrote about the continuous mode. I use the exposure bracketing w/o the continuous mode.

 

Having a familiarity with the camera helps when one is discussing it.

[h00ligan]

I don't see that anyone has particularly missed the difference in burst and bracketing. Theee are just some hardcore, never use burst to take fast frames in succession opinions here.

[prk60091]

I don't see that anyone has particularly missed the difference in burst and bracketing. Theee are just some hardcore, never use burst to take fast frames in succession opinions here.

 

To think I was naive enough to think it was a misunderstanding- well like religion and politics minds cannot be changed with reason. I see no reason that this thread should remain open. There are 2 opposing opinions which will not be changed.

 

 

Andy, you might as well close the thread, nothing more can be learned from further discussion.

 

On to something productive.

[phancj]

i don't think anyone called it machine gunning until Bill gave it that label and quite frankly "machine gunning" is bad- but using technology (automatically bracketing) to get the right look is ok in my book

 

 

Machine gunning sounds not too bad, I really do not mind, but it may be that the rest of the post seems condescending to some in certain ways, and the subsequent responses do not help either. I wouldnt worry about semantics as long as we know what we are talking about, it aint gonna affect our photos?

 

Right.

 

Fair enough.

 

Shoot at 3 frames per second everywhere and I'm sure that a "decisive moment" will come your way one day.

 

There are many, many photographers turning in their graves at this very moment.

 

I, for one, am still searching for that moment. And when it comes, and I get that one frame, I will be an extremely happy person.

 

But, this is, of course, only my opinion and, as has been said a million times before, everyone has one.

 

I have to disagree on this one. What is the "decisive moment" and its duration? Millisecond, a second? If I can use absolutely the best technique of holding the camera, ideal settings on camera and choose to fire off a succession of shots within the so-called "decisive moment" what can possibly be wrong? I am sure the past masters will have no problem with that either. The final image is the sole determinant of good technique, IMHO.

[h00ligan]

Stuffy stuffy stuffy. This thread depresses me and makes me forget why I enjoyed the board to begin with. I had a lot to learn, but the more I stay the more I see archaic neophytic condescending posts. It's sad. I wonder what people said when the technology changed early on. Probably about the same.

 

@laz, your tone and sarcasm are ridiculous. We are a bunch of people having a discussion, be human.

[phancj]

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Go take some photos buddy. Thats what I plan to do tonight after work. Just convinced my wife to follow me and bring my doggie too. Hope the weather holds up:)

[jsrockit]

Well, in all fairness... there is more to photography than the decisive moment. If you are taking a photo of a static scene and you are at your cameras limits for hand-holding, you had too much caffiene, and you don't have a tripod or something to lean against, then why not use a burst mode?

[phancj]

My latest interpretation of decisive moment may differ, it means I take a shot or 2 or good heavens 3 shots within that window of opportunity. Why stop at one?

[jaapv]

Problem is, there are two things being confused here - first hosing down the subject to get a good shot - indeed sloppy, secondly using multiple shots to get the one with the least shake - maybe not quite elegant, but as elegant as schlepping a tripod. Come on guys, we are taking photographs, not performing in Swan Lake...

[fotografr]

Well, I've learned one thing by reading this thread. I am a slob because I use my right hand to hold my fork at the dinner table. Should I also be lining peas up on my butter knife?

[Guest xCorpsman]

Well, in all fairness... there is more to photography than the decisive moment. If you are taking a photo of a static scene and you are at your cameras limits for hand-holding, you had too much caffiene, and you don't have a tripod or something to lean against, then why not use a burst mode?

 

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I have a (familial) tremor. However, I very rarely shoot in continuous mode, preferring to concentrate on my breathing and adopting a steady "firing" position and smooth shutter release in order to improve my technique.

 

The last time I shot on continuous mode was while taking a shot of the Chagall stained glass in Saint-Étienne Cathedral. Boy, was it dark in there! I ended up with a reasonably sharp raw image or two to work with in post but did feel it was wasteful.

[andybarton]

Well, I've learned one thing by reading this thread. I am a slob because I use my right hand to hold my fork at the dinner table. Should I also be lining peas up on my butter knife?

 

I eat my peas with honey

I've done so all my life

It makes the peas taste funny

But it keeps them on the knife.

 

Anon

[bill]

I'm going to have one last go at this, not because I have any hope of converting anyone, but because I want to be absolutely clear about what I am saying. I shall therefore, with your permission, illustrate my point with photos. I have kept them small, so as not to inconvenience anyone.

 

Image 1:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Taken with a film SLR. This is an ancient scan, and I don't even remember the camera. Probably a Nikon F90x from the vintage. One shot, panning with one of the 'planes, both eyes open to anticipate the crossover point. High shutter speed, to try to freeze motion as far as possible.

 

Image 2:

 

Taken with my first Leica, an M6, back in the early '90s. This was in Bruges, and was the first time I had taken the camera on a trip. I spotted the balloon, and composed for it and the canal. I spotted the old man on the 'bike and released the shutter as he came into position. Nowadays I would have used a higher shutter speed, and avoided the blur on the handlebars, but I was less experienced then.

 

Image 3:

 

Taken with an Olympus DSLR. I watched the gunners' routine, and pressed the shutter release as they brought the wick down.

 

Image 4:

 

Taken with an 80 year old Leica II. Exposure by Sunny-16. The street entertainer flipped his hat from his foot to his head, catching it thus. He took two goes at it, missing the first time. This was his (and my) second attempt. One shot. This one actually won the "Decisive Moment" Barnack Challenge.

 

None of the above has had extensive photoshopping. None of the above used a burst mode or motordrive even when (on two of the cameras) one was present. Two were taken with state of the art "prosumer" (D)SLRs. One with an M and one with an LTM. Four very different cameras, one very straightforward technique, that does not vary from camera to camera. Anticipate. Release the shutter at the right - the decisive - moment. Get it right and your feeling of satisfaction will be tremendous. Get it wrong, and you will only have yourself to blame. Switch to auto everything, take the talent, the timing and the risk out of it and you may as well, as Andy said, be shooting on HD video.

 

Master your technique, or your equipment will always be your master.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[jsrockit]

Bill, first of all, I love that second photo... however, these photos are made in decent light. I thought the whole burst mode thing was talking about using it in low light situations at slow shutter speeds without a tripod?

[AlanJW]

Bill: nice photographs. I have a question though. That relates directly to thevsubject of this forum, the X1. Your shots were not X1 but other equipment, like M's. I use an M9 and an X1. The M9, like other M's I have owned, is well suited to composing, focusing and waiting for the decisive moment. I have so far been quite frustrated with the X1 in similar photo situations. Maybe it is me but I find the autofocus very slow and the shutter lag unsuited to moving objects because the judgment about when to trip the shutter is distorted by the autofocus/shutter lag and I am always therefore too late. I can therefore well understand how someone who has an X1 could try to compensate for what i consider a camera deficiency by shooting in rapid succession. Hence, the proper technique for an M may not work on an X1. If someone has figured out a technique for minimizing the lag problems, I'd to to be educated. For now, I don't even think about the X1 when trying street photos or other work that requires that sense of timing. I can do it on an M but the X1 is a different animal.

[phancj]

Nice photos Bill! It goes to show your wealth of experience.

 

The photo of the performer with the hat is superb, and shows your immaculate timing.

 

Much as I sometimes get annoyed with your arrogance, I see your point on the emphasis on perfect technique and timing. I think that is something we can lose track of if we solely rely on technology.

 

However, I disagree totally on your concept of "decisive moment" meaning you take one shot that says it all and if you failed to do it, then its gone forever? I would employ the best techniques which include stance, method of pressing trigger, perfect settings on camera and in that window of opportunity fire off a burst and I might capture maybe the moment when the hat is even closer to the head, or in a nicer position, etc,etc do you see my point? Since it is a decisive moment we must make the best of it and if that includes using burst mode I would do it. Why let our fixation on archaic principles limit our potential? I do not believe that past masters would deliberately cripple themselves in the face of modern technology. I am hoping that buffers get larger, and burst shots get more intense so maybe I can get 20 shots in a second. That would be great! After all, that decisive moment once gone is gone forever??!!

 

What I am saying is your emphasis on proper technique and derision of sloppy form is understandable, but your being anal on the decisive moment being a single shot I totally disagree. I think the decisive moment is a span of time, and if necessary a photographer who wants to take the best possible shot should harness technology as a tool and hose the target down. After all, there is shutter lag and certain movement can happen in a split second, with human reaction time being a limiting factor as well.

 

Having said all that, I thank you for reminding us on the use of proper technique.

[pop]

... I would employ the best techniques which include stance, method of pressing trigger, perfect settings on camera and in that window of opportunity fire off a burst and I might capture maybe the moment when the hat is even closer to the head, or in a nicer position, etc,etc do you see my point?

(emphases are mine)

 

I think there's the rub. Let's get numerical for an instance.

 

The shutter delay of an M type camera is close to zero as compared with the reaction speed of the human nervous system. Under very very favourable conditions, a human can time the execution of a simple action to about 1/60 of a second. (Synchronized clapping of hands in a crowd). Let's say you can time your shot to within one tenth of a second in real life situations such as Bill illustrated above.

 

That combination lets you make shots such as Bill did. Some of the time, anyway.

 

Now take a camera which takes much more time to start firing and set it to fire three shots in one second. In order to cover the "best" time in your series, you will press the release earlier than Bill would have done. With a bit practice and luck, the first shot fired by the camera might also be a bit earlier than Bill's. The next shot then will be one third of a second later.

 

There's part of a simplified answer. In a situation where a difference of one sixth of a second has little or no influence on the composition, you can fire away on automatic.

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[andybarton]

So, where's the skill in shooting 25 frames per second? Why not make it 50 or 100?

 

Set the camera to "full auto", point in the right direction and then when you get home, see what you've got.

 

In Bill's examples above, he will have known as his finger left the shutter button that the shot he wanted was on the film. "25 shot per second advocates" will not understand the excitement of seeing the one shot on the roll of negs or slide. Or even, dare I say it, on the screen on the back of the camera.

[phancj]

So, where's the skill in shooting 25 frames per second? Why not make it 50 or 100?

 

Set the camera to "full auto", point in the right direction and then when you get home, see what you've got.

 

In Bill's examples above, he will have known as his finger left the shutter button that the shot he wanted was on the film. "25 shot per second advocates" will not understand the excitement of seeing the one shot on the roll of negs or slide. Or even, dare I say it, on the screen on the back of the camera.

 

The skill is in framing, composition, settings, etc, etc...when we press the shutter we can set it for 1, 10, or 25 shots. I do not see how that makes me lacking in technique, just harnessing technology. We are looking at digital, not film. On film I concede this may be wasteful. But with digital what it really means is more shots with slight nuances different and I can nail a better "decisive moment" than with taking one, particularly taking into account inevitable shutter lag and limited human response time. Mind you we are not getting younger either, all of us??!!

 

There seems to be this big fixation that at the decisive moment we take only one shot. My contention is that the moment is a duration (sometimes a very short one) firing more shots within that is not poor technique, its insurance and practical. At the same time all proper techniques should be utilized. Whats wrong with that??!

 

The excitement is getting the best image, regardless the numbers it takes to get there. Meanwhile, I still try to use proper techniques. To each his own, but this is healthy discussion.