M8/9 users going X1 or vice versa?

[prk60091]

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in essence you agree with my point, coming at it from the film/sensor replacement angle. regardless of whether you can or cannot afford an m9 plus lens (assuming you start from scratch), the sensor is the film and in a perfect world the digital body would be priced to reflect its engineering and impermanence rather than like an analog machine that is never truly outdated. this is where i believe the m9 is mispriced. in fact, leica's pricing of the m9 effectively pushes into the corner of not being too quick to release better versions lest they destroy the pricing model they have -- people paying up to buy a classic machine that can be handed down to the grandchildren. better for leica to lower the price of the body and raise the price of the lens, and broaden the lenses that are available.

 

I think in one sense you are right. Instead of making an update cycle of planned obsolescence I hope leica is going the other way.... The m9 system remains intact with software refinements & different glass. The x1 remains a superlative point and shoot ( you should not have to be a technician to take and 'develop' a superlative image )-- as technology advances perhaps a x2 with new faster sensor and/or 'better glass' as technology and materials allow, and a churn and burn dlux/vlux/clux panaleica yearly updates.

 

Think about it how often the analog M system was updated.

 

I expect the x1 to be a top seller for leica-just inexpensive enough to be affordable just good enough to be desirable.

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[h00ligan]

Unfortunately it's the law of diminishing return with the x1. I expect the same loss in the short term on the x1 - 15-20% in the next 6 months, but that's not too much, < $400. Not a life changer to most buying Leica.

[NZDavid]

playing devils advocate, the digilux 2 is still around...

 

Amazing! So ancient! The digilux 2 is, what, seven years old. M3s over 50 years old are still going strong.

[prk60091]

Amazing! So ancient! The digilux 2 is, what, seven years old. M3s over 50 years old are still going strong.

 

in the disposable digital era it is ancient....

 

by the way how long are you going to have film to shoot with that m3? or chemicals to develop it? or labs to professionally develop and print?

[stephen.w]

by the way how long are you going to have film to shoot with that m3? or chemicals to develop it? or labs to professionally develop and print?

 

Longer than the lifespan of any digital camera currently in production, I suspect.

[prk60091]

Longer than the lifespan of any digital camera currently in production, I suspect.

 

i don't know how many bricks you have refrigerated so you may be right....

 

I would be surprised if 35mm lasts through this decade.

i would expect many if not all the digital m's and x1's being used through the end of the decade....

but until i shine up my crystal ball we'll have to hold off a definitive answer for 10 years or so...

[Sailronin]

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I think 35mm film will be around for quite a while. There are still millions of film cameras in operation. We won't have the selection that is now available but there will be film stock available. If you go to speciality sites it's still possible to get 127, 5x7 and other "oddball" sizes.

[jsrockit]

i don't know how many bricks you have refrigerated so you may be right....

 

I would be surprised if 35mm lasts through this decade.

i would expect many if not all the digital m's and x1's being used through the end of the decade....

but until i shine up my crystal ball we'll have to hold off a definitive answer for 10 years or so...

 

Sure, film may become more and more of a niche product, but it will be produced by someone for the next 20 years at least. Vinyls heyday was over 20 years ago and people are still making records.

[sblitz]

therefore, looking at price vs time to extinction is the m9 priced too high? given that the glass is forever, the x1 is priced = to a lens, or thereabouts, so is the x1 priced more realistically than the m9? not that we can change the price, be we can spend our money where the value proposition makes more sense in a digital rather than analog world. btw, you can still find tubes for your radio online, so i suspect you will always be able to find film and someone to develop it.

[prk60091]

Sure, film may become more and more of a niche product, but it will be produced by someone for the next 20 years at least. Vinyls heyday was over 20 years ago and people are still making records.

 

it is already a niche product.... when was the last time you were anywhere and you saw a film camera? i took a cruise to alaska last year and I saw an elderly gentlman (older than me) walking around with a SRT102 (a nice camera in its day) but really didnt see any other film cameras.....

everywhere i go i see someone chimping over their digital camera or holding their cell phone up taking photos...

 

a quick look at amazon.com shows that vinyl records are about 2x the cost of the CD equivalent

 

you are right that someone- somewhere may make 35mm film but i remember when 620 film was discontinued from mass production....people moved on to the next format.... then i remember when 126 was discontinued from mass production and then 110 , people moved on to the next.....the next for 35mm film is digital...

[jsrockit]

lazaruz... I said it will become more and more of a niche product... I never said it wasn't already. I think your analogy to 126, 110, and 620 isn't correct. How many pro cameras were built using these formats? The fact that 35mm film cameras are still being made should let you know that 35mm isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It will be harder to find and will be more expensive, but it will stick around. Vinyl records are not twice as much as CDs... unless they come with special features / "free" MP3s included or are on 180 gram vinyl.

 

I live in NYC...so this may not be fair...but I see film cameras every day. Plus, I hang out with people who use film.

[prk60091]

lazaruz... I said it will become more and more of a niche product... I never said it wasn't already. I think your analogy to 126, 110, and 620 isn't correct. How many pro cameras were built using these formats? The fact that 35mm film cameras are still being made should let you know that 35mm isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It will be harder to find and will be more expensive, but it will stick around. Vinyl records are not twice as much as CDs... unless they come with special features / "free" MP3s included or are on 180 gram vinyl.

 

I live in NYC...so this may not be fair...but I see film cameras every day. Plus, I hang out with people who use film.

 

being here in the boonies of Chicago i see alot of monkeys chimping- of course mostly the out of towners looking up at the big buildings- real chicagoans never chimp

[jsrockit]

Nothing wrong with chimping... unless you are missing good opportunities while doing it.

[prk60091]

Nothing wrong with chimping... unless you are missing good opportunities while doing it.

 

l guess all the out of towners chimping are new yorkers

[jsrockit]

Perhaps lazaruz... but NYC is full of out of towners, so.... Anyway, I see hundreds of cameras a day because I'm by the WTC site and I work directly on Wall St. I step outside the office and there are hundreds of tourists all of the time. This may explain why I notice film cameras every day. Of course they are so few in numbers compared to digital P&S cameras, but I still see them.

 

I think I'm alone in my thought that chimping is a good thing at times (for someone who takes photography seriously). Of course, when there is action... I don't chimp, I photograph... but if for static objects where I want precise framing and composition, I will chimp every time. I don't feel it deminishes the legitimacy of my photography, so why not?

 

I also like composing with the LCD believe it or not. I like a good rangefinder better, but I think the LCD beats the SLR prism (IMHO of course).

[Guest badbob]

Vinyl records are not twice as much as CDs... unless they come with special features / "free" MP3s included or are on 180 gram vinyl.

 

From what I read in Stereophile and Absolute Sound, the so-called audiophile LP's are being made today from digital masters, including records that were recorded in analog. And from what I've heard on LLVJ, nearly all photographers who shoot film then scan the film to digital files for printing. So it looks like there really is no such thing as an analog process today.

[JeTexas]

While most people in the U.S, Europe and Japan can afford a cheap digital camera, 35mm film is still the only choice in many developing countries.

 

Even Polaroid film was phased out, and the die-hard Polaroid fans found a way to save it.

 

Because it's a Leica with a true Leica lens, the X1 will retain a niche value. The M9 is priced in the same market as something like the Nikon D3S.

 

I think the megapixel wars are over. It seems that the optimal combination for detail and low noise seems to be somewhere between 10 - 15 megapixels depending on the sensor.

 

I think the full frame sensors will become the professional standard with refinements to a point that they can virtually see in the dark with no noise over the next few years.

 

Anything with an APS-C over 6mp is plenty to meet the industry standards for web and print work. I've been using a 6mp Nikon D70s for almost 5 years. I see no need to upgrade it.

[prk60091]

Perhaps lazaruz... but NYC is full of out of towners, so.... Anyway, I see hundreds of cameras a day because I'm by the WTC site and I work directly on Wall St. I step outside the office and there are hundreds of tourists all of the time. This may explain why I notice film cameras every day. Of course they are so few in numbers compared to digital P&S cameras, but I still see them.

 

I think I'm alone in my thought that chimping is a good thing at times (for someone who takes photography seriously). Of course, when there is action... I don't chimp, I photograph... but if for static objects where I want precise framing and composition, I will chimp every time. I don't feel it deminishes the legitimacy of my photography, so why not?

 

I also like composing with the LCD believe it or not. I like a good rangefinder better, but I think the LCD beats the SLR prism (IMHO of course).

 

I don't doubt in NYC you will see many more 35mm film cameras on any given day than I will on a Wednesday night on Michigan ave (think 5th ave and half it)

 

Most of the monkeys are not precise framing or composing but I am sure have their cameras on "P" and wouldn't know a f stop from a shutter speed if it bit them on their butt.

 

I have only shot around 400 frames so i am still learning this camera I have now shot many more AF than MF frames. There are uses for both. I was on the bubble about getting the OVF but I have decided against it because the LCD works for me.

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[h00ligan]

Perhaps lazaruz... but NYC is full of out of towners, so.... Anyway, I see hundreds of cameras a day because I'm by the WTC site and I work directly on Wall St. I step outside the office and there are hundreds of tourists all of the time. This may explain why I notice film cameras every day. Of course they are so few in numbers compared to digital P&S cameras, but I still see them.

 

I think I'm alone in my thought that chimping is a good thing at times (for someone who takes photography seriously). Of course, when there is action... I don't chimp, I photograph... but if for static objects where I want precise framing and composition, I will chimp every time. I don't feel it deminishes the legitimacy of my photography, so why not?

 

I also like composing with the LCD believe it or not. I like a good rangefinder better, but I think the LCD beats the SLR prism (IMHO of course).

 

I think when I come back soon) we will have to get together and go shooting!

[jsrockit]

From what I read in Stereophile and Absolute Sound, the so-called audiophile LP's are being made today from digital masters, including records that were recorded in analog. And from what I've heard on LLVJ, nearly all photographers who shoot film then scan the film to digital files for printing. So it looks like there really is no such thing as an analog process today.

 

Good point... but still, these formats exist in some way and will continue to as long as there are niche fans. Too much nostalgia for these products for them to disappear.