Finally, finally. supply may be meeting demand...

[jsrockit]

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Other than a rangefinder which epson did first anyway, what is there that leica has done digitally that is a breakthrough?........ the S2 is just another version of medium format.

It is a long time between drinks with leica, the D2 was a single shot followed by light ales made by Panasonic with a dandy dot..

 

I have to agree with this... I've always felt like Leica has been playing catch up with everyone else...

 

While size is important... it is not that innovative.

[Guest badbob]

I have to agree with this... I've always felt like Leica has been playing catch up with everyone else...

While size is important... it is not that innovative.

 

A tiny company like Leica produces not one but three best-of-their-kind cameras at the same time, and that's catchup? That's the strangest definition of catch-up I've ever heard.

[jsrockit]

Yes, they caught up with those three (though they are still hard to get)...prior to those, they were way behind. What's so strange about that?

[Guest badbob]

Yes, they caught up with those three (though they are still hard to get)...prior to those, they were way behind. What's so strange about that?

 

So Leica scooped (or smoked) all the big camera companies, not once but three times, and that's not special? Actually the X1, M9, and S2 are very special cameras, as their prices attest. Unless you think people who buy them at those prices are crazy, which begs the question why you're here. So let's see if I have this right - Mr./Ms. prospective buyer: I have three cameras for you to pick from. They're nothing special and they each cost several times what comparable cameras cost that have better features. Much better features, for a fraction the price.

 

Now, if they weren't special, who would be crazy enough to buy them? And I'd like to point out that many buyers like myself aren't wealthy, earning an average wage.

[Dan States]

Optics have always been their core advantage, with bodies coming in high for novelty but low for innovation. (At least not since the original M3, the last truly "advanced" Leica body in it's time)

 

They failed to recognize the digital tidal wave that finally swamped the industry until it was almost too late...but in the end they have come around and look to be a survivor.

 

They now produce camera BODIES that can rival the output of the top of the digital field and they still make the best lenses around. Sounds pretty good to me.... Now if only they could make ENOUGH of them.

 

They have learned the lesson of the LX3-Dlux4 twins well however. Underproduction leads to longer product cycles and higher lifetime margins on the product. Look forward to limited production for darn near anything going forward! Hell, the LX3 is as old as dirt and still going for $399!!

[Guest stnami]

Now this is where we hit the breakthrough camera department and even then it is accumulative development ......

[jsrockit]

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So Leica scooped (or smoked) all the big camera companies, not once but three times, and that's not special? Actually the X1, M9, and S2 are very special cameras, as their prices attest. Unless you think people who buy them at those prices are crazy, which begs the question why you're here. So let's see if I have this right - Mr./Ms. prospective buyer: I have three cameras for you to pick from. They're nothing special and they each cost several times what comparable cameras cost that have better features. Much better features, for a fraction the price.

 

Now, if they weren't special, who would be crazy enough to buy them? And I'd like to point out that many buyers like myself aren't wealthy, earning an average wage.

 

Jesus, is your brain malfunctioning? I said Leica caught up with these cameras. However, they are still all niche cameras and there are arguably better options depending on your needs. It is easy to be best in class when you are the only one in your class no?

 

Anyway, why am I here? Because I use Leica M film cameras and the X1. They are special... but not as much as you are making them out to be. All cameras have flaws, even Leica. To be honest, I use a Nikon D700 as well and it is a hell of a camera. I know it is hip to hate DSLRs, but at a fraction of the cost of a Leica... this camera IS amazing. Which brings me back to Leicas innovation... size.

[Guest badbob]

Jesus, is your brain malfunctioning?

 

They are special... but not as much as you are making them out to be.

 

Where I come from what you just did was swearing at me (Jesus), followed by an insult. I didn't know they allowed that here. I hope this forum doesn't prove to be as low class as you are.

 

You pay several times (3 times?) as much for a camera with 3 times less features. That's a negative ratio of 9 to 1, give or take a few percent. Then you say it's not that special. I think you must live in the Twilight Zone.

[Guest stnami]

Bob's gone bad lost the plot, taken up trench warfare with vengeanc............ hey Bob it ended in 1918

[Guest badbob]

Bob's gone bad lost the plot, taken up trench warfare with vengeanc............ hey Bob it ended in 1918

 

Only for the fortunate few who write the official versions.

[jsrockit]

Where I come from what you just did was swearing at me (Jesus), followed by an insult. I didn't know they allowed that here. I hope this forum doesn't prove to be as low class as you are.

 

You pay several times (3 times?) as much for a camera with 3 times less features. That's a negative ratio of 9 to 1, give or take a few percent. Then you say it's not that special. I think you must live in the Twilight Zone.

 

Jesus is a swear (I thought it was just some Mexican guy's name)? I may be low class (sometimes), but I believe you're being a bit too sensitive. I apologize...seriously.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I think the Leica stuff is special. However, I don't think they are as innovative as you think they are... outside of size. Something can be very special without being innovative e.g. the Leica MP.

[davidhunternyc]

Now this is where we hit the breakthrough camera department and even then it is accumulative development ......

 

Wow, that Canon wonder camera is dope! This makes the M9 look like it was made back in 1957.

[RichardM8]

This makes the M9 look like it was made back in 1957.

 

It is !!

 

That Canon does look like a scary medical tool...

[theendlesshouse]

So Leica scooped (or smoked) all the big camera companies, not once but three times, and that's not special? Actually the X1, M9, and S2 are very special cameras, as their prices attest.

 

Yes they are crazy prices! Price restructuring at Leica over the last 4 years has been creative to say the least.

 

Rest assured Leica are already working on improvements to all three cameras, this does not diminish their image capturing capabilities but for a Leica product they have an abbreviated lifespan; this is not reflected in their advertising as they are still touted as cameras for a lifetime and this is a crazy claim.

[Guest badbob]

....I don't think they are as innovative as you think they are... outside of size. Something can be very special without being innovative e.g. the Leica MP.

 

I believe one of your major points was that small size per se isn't innovative. But yes it can be *very* innovative. The whole point of the technology behind the X1 was to get the power of the APS-C into the small package that the X1 is. And nobody(!) but Leica was able to do that.

 

Ask anyone on the Apollo rocket program if getting size of certain items down didn't require tremendous innovation.

[jsrockit]

Ask anyone on the Apollo rocket program if getting size of certain items down didn't require tremendous innovation.

 

That's true... but that was a different time. I'm not an expert, but it seems that minaturization in electronics has come a long way since that program. To me, the X1 is innovative by being minimal and simplistic in the time of today's "swiss-army" style japanese cameras.

[h00ligan]

That's true... but that was a different time. I'm not an expert, but it seems that minaturization in electronics has come a long way since that program.

 

Same basic rate since the inception of Moore's Law. Some people will argue it doesn't apply to digital cameras - to that i say bull!

 

But if you can double the power or half the size on that regular of a schedule - you'r'e going places fast! people neglect to realize if you double transistors on a chip, you can also fit the previous amount on a chip half the size.

[jpjansen]

That's true... but that was a different time. I'm not an expert, but it seems that minaturization in electronics has come a long way since that program. To me, the X1 is innovative by being minimal and simplistic in the time of today's "swiss-army" style japanese cameras.

 

jsrocket hits the point.

 

In terms of pocketabilty and simplicity the X1 is quite close to the Minox GTxx, of which type I own two. The first one is totally worn out after a couple of years in tropical conditions, leaks light due to rough handling and has almost no skin left; the newer one was bought in 1999 and looks a lot better, most probably because decent 24x36 processing rapidly became less available after that year.

 

I wish I could twist the lens on the X1 for rough focusing. As things are, MF to infinity or slightly less has served me well so far, with manual aperture settings and auto shutter as defaults.

[Guest badbob]

That's true... but that was a different time.

 

Well, the same applies today. Millions (billions?) of people would love to have the exact functionality of the X1 in a package the size of the DL4/LX3. The current limitation is the sensor, to achieve lowest possible noise. If that exact performance can be produced (without noise reduction smearing) in a DL4-size package, it would be a huge hit.

 

BTW, it actually may be possible to do that very thing today, at a huge price - maybe $100k or half a million dollars - who knows? One can assume that certain govt. agencies have access to such things. Then again, considering what happened with the Apple phone prototype and other similar incidents, they may be reluctant to allow their agents to walk around with such things in hand. But you can be sure that a large part of innovation is devoted to making things smaller.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[enboe]

A walk-in success story.

 

OK, actually I called first, but Colonial Photo in Orlando had an X1 sitting on the shelf, waiting for a home. Thanks to Ken for his knowledgeable service.