Leica M11, changeable sensor, possible?

[Elsu]

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I have been shooting with my M9 for many weeks.

And either with the passion of Leica or the price tag, like many other M9 owners, I intend to shoot with this M9 for many years to come.

 

However, the cold fact is it is still a digital camera. unlike the M2 and M4 I keep, I already expect M9's price to drop as the years come by. And surely the upcoming Leica digital Ms will have better sensors more pixels.

 

This leads me back to the question I have been wondering for a long while, particularly when I (kind of have to) buy a new digital camera every year. Doesn't it make much sense to make a camera body like they make a PC, that you can change the sensor (the CPU, gfx card, memory in PC)?

 

So far I have only found one elaborated discussion in dpreview forum speculating such move for Leica M10. Certainly, there is quite some business model they need to figure out so they would not cannibalise sales of new digital M bodies.

What about 6000 USD for a M10 and 4000 USD for the sensor upgrade?

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[adan]

I'll expect Leica to produce an upgradable body about the time that Nikon makes it possible to put a D3x sensor into a D1.

 

Actually , there are limits to what you can upgrade in a PC - try putting an Intel chip into a Motorola or G5 Macintosh and see what happens - or a current Intel CPU into a 2000 Dell. How many computers have you actually upgraded to any extent - and how long were they upgradable before the technology simply moved on, leaving them in the dust? Less than 10 years, probably.

 

In 20 years of digital cameras, how many have been upgradable?

 

Digital backs, probably - for systems designed to accept interchangeable backs in the first place (i.e. big cameras).

 

The Ricoh GXR (which requires a lens change to change the sensor - how much for a full new set of Leica lenses every time you swap sensors? - not $4000!!)

 

The bottom line is that the sensor is just one part of a suite of electronics in any camera, all tuned to work together, and all subject to constantly becoming outmoded by newer technology. An M10 is not going to be an M9 with a new sensor (if Leica keeps up with everyone else technologically) - it will be a whole new camera inside (at least). Maybe the SD card reader and the USB port and shutter will be recycled, but that's about it.

[hoppyman]

Elsu I think that you have started the very first M11 thread :)

As Andy mentioned there is a lot more in there than just the sensor, of course. I think that Leica Camera will continue with the current body shape and viewfinder with rangefinder for any future M models. The very precise calibration of the sensor position in the body is part of the design to get the best quality results too. The current design is not modular and there is very little room in there of course. The M9 is by far the smallest 24x36 sensor camera available.

 

We do know that the sensor will not get any larger area because it always needs to work with all of the M lenses already made. I don't think that we NEED more than 18MP but of course sensor designs are evolving all of the time. Who knows what will be in there?

 

But I do not think that you will have to be concerned that an M11 (or even an M10) will appear anytime soon and I'm sure that the M9 model will be around for more than a year.

[redbaron]

My MP gets a sensor upgrade every 36 shots and it only costs me $6.00. I've just ordered some of the latest 500 mb sensors from Adox.

[John Thawley]

Personally, I have no problem with digital cameras being disposable. I just wish they would price them as such.

 

JT

[hoppyman]

Redbaron you mean a sensor that fails and requires replacement every 36 shots. Then each sensor requires chemical post processing. What are you using, Xtol 1.2? You can upgrade to 1.3 by downloading some more filtered water. Be careful of those dead pixel lines that can appear when you process them and of course dust can always be a problem too.

[redbaron]

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Redbaron you mean a sensor that fails and requires replacement every 36 shots. Then each sensor requires chemical post processing. What are you using, Xtol 1.2? You can upgrade to 1.3 by downloading some more filtered water. Be careful of those dead pixel lines that can appear when you process them and of course dust can always be a problem too.

 

Dust! Bloody dust! Once you've used Photoshop to remove the blasted stuff it makes working in a real darkroom dangerous to your sanity!

 

BTW, I noticed you were in Berlin recently (nice shots). Did you, by any chance visit Meister Camera? I must have walked the entire length of Fasanenstrasse without finding it! I did have my half-frozen two-year-old though.

[hoppyman]

Berlin is simply the most walkable, interesting city I have ever visited. Yes I did meet the nice Meister Camera folks. Luckily their English is much better than my German. I don't have those photos up currently but they have a wonderful display of Leica treasures. Fasanenstrasse 71 if you get back there.

[earleygallery]

It would be possible to make a digital back for an 'M' body rather like a DMR or a MF digital back, but it would most likely mean a much larger overall body size, and more expense. You would end up with a camera which would take M lenses but it wouldn't really be a Leica M anymore.

 

The other option is to cut costs, make a cheaper rangefinder assembly, a plastic camera body, rather like the Epson. But again that wouldn't be a Leica.

 

Given the above options I guess that most would just choose to switch to DSLR's if the compact size and quality of a Leica M were changed significantly.

[koray]

...a digital back for an 'M' body rather like a DMR or a MF digital back...

 

This may potentially come true in about 10 years' time. :-) A Leica M backdoor form-factor digital back; 6mm thick, incorporating miniaturised components, i.e. a full-frame sensor, processors, memory, a thin display unit, and all powered by a film canister sized battery that has 1000 shots capacity. Uploads to a secure storage on the web via fast wireless WAN.

 

According to today's manufacturing/marketing trends this idea has no future. But what do we know about future? Think of what you can do using off the shelf microprocessors today (Who would believe an Arduino kit 20 years ago? It is faster than the best computers of those days).

 

So I say, the future M backdoor may easily be a home made product.

 

 

K.

[pico]

Most of you probably know that we have had interchagable digital backs since about 1988. Look to the early Nikons. They were conventional bodies with Leica-R like backs and bodies. Of course, the sensors were small, but.. as James wrote, they will be more bulky than the M alone. The problem is not fixed with miniaturized chips.

 

It truly makes me wince to see someone chimping an M9.

[Riley]

people fascinate themselves with notions like this b/se they think it will develop into a cheap to upgrade non degradable digital cameras that will last forever.

 

even if this was possible within the same size constraints of the M chassis, which it isnt, what would you say if it cost 90% of what the present M9 costs anyway, still seem a good idea?

[johnwolf]

It's possible to make an upgradable sensor, but not one with much more horsepower. That's because when a main component like a microprocessor becomes significantly more powerful, so much else must change to support that greater capability. More circuits, faster RAM, a different socket, more power, better cooling, and so on. That's why replacing the motherboard is usually necessary. Leica could probably replace all that infrastructure for much less than the cost of a new model, but why do so when folks will buy a brand new M10 or M11?

 

John

[koray]

By the way, Steven K Lee (ex-CEO of Leica Cameras) was fired in 2008 because of his comments on an M8 upgrade program, right?

 

In today's economy such upgrade programs don't make sense.

 

K.

[AlanG]

I don't know if it is so far fetched. Perhaps not an upgradable sensor, but an upgradable electronic package. Look at the new Sony Nex and consider how little space the sensor, electronics, controls, and LCD take up. (And that tiny thin body also has a 7 fps shutter.) The entire Nex body and zoom lens is only $700, so how much could the LCD, electronics and even a full frame sensor cost as components? (Not what Leica would charge.)

 

Instead of spreading the electronics all through the body, why couldn't all of this simply be in a removable modular unit behind and next to the Leica M shutter? Sort of like the DMR concept only much smaller and more modern due to advances in electronics. This way, the expensive rangefinder, and other mechanical bits could continue indefinitely. It could also be possible to use this electronic module in a variety of different camera bodies - rangefinder, AF SLR, compact AF EVIL without having to re-engineer the electronics for each model. Sensor cleaning and repairs would be simplified. Leica could concentrate on building the mechanical components and subcontract the electronics as a package if that is the best way. (It isn't as if Leica is making any of these electronic components now.)

 

This is nothing new - sort of what has happened with MF on almost all systems - except for the S2.