M series shutter speed dial - setting half stops

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I have been under the impression for some time that it was possible to set the shutter speed dial on Leica M series cameras to give speeds between the standard set speeds.

 

I've been doing this for many years with my M2 and now with an M3 to get the half stops without setting them on the lens. The intention is to get a faster shutter speed rather than greater depth of field. I've recently read the owners manual for the M6 and it says that intermediate speeds are not available for that model.

 

My only 50mm lens is the modern F2.8 Elmar where there are no half stops after F8 and so if used with the M6 it would seem that fine adjustment to exposure is not possible after that stop. Have I been mistaken for all these years or is it just the M6?

[dsj]

I once heard somewhere that the M5 was the last M that could be used with shutterspeeds in between the usual numbers. not shure though.

[Kalee]

Because the speeds are controllled by a cam, you can get intermediate speeds on all M cameras including the M6 but accuracy cannot be guaranteed!

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Because the speeds are controllled by a cam, you can get intermediate speeds on all M cameras including the M6 but accuracy cannot be guaranteed!

 

Thanks for the replies and the explanation. As I said I've been setting the half stops this way now for some time and it hasn't seemed to have a detrimental effect on exposure. It's a question that's been bugging me for some time so thanks again for clearing this up.

[Xmas]

Hi Howard

 

It may be easier (more accurate) setting the Elmar to intermediate values, between the detents, if you are careful they should not shift between exposures. Lots of the earlier lenses did not have detents.

 

Noel

[lars_bergquist]

Because the speeds are controllled by a cam, you can get intermediate speeds on all M cameras including the M6 but accuracy cannot be guaranteed!

This is partly true for the old mechanically governed cloth shutters. All speeds are not continuously governed by one cam: there are fast speeds that are cam-regulated, and slow speeds where a delay mechanism comes into play, just as in the screw-thread Leicas, even if there is no longer a separate slow speed dial. These are the speeds where the second curtain cannot be released while the first one is still running, and therefore in principle be released BY the first curtain. Instead the second curtain is held back for a while by a delay mechainsm, even while the first one had already come to a stop. In other words, speeds longer than the shortest flash X-synch speed of 1/50th of a second.

 

The result is that old manuals declared that in between speeds of 1 -- 1/8, between 1/15 and 1/30 and faster than 1/60 could be set. This as far as I know is still true for the MP. The shutter of the M7 is of course electronically controlled, steplessly while on auto, but only in whole steps on manual. -- M8 and M9 shutters have halfway detents between all speeds, and very useful they are.

 

The old man from the Age of the Compur Shutter

[earleygallery]

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Unless you're using slides is a half stop going to matter? Unless you want to shoot wide open is a half stop going to matter?!

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Unless you're using slides is a half stop going to matter? Unless you want to shoot wide open is a half stop going to matter?!

 

I take your point and I should have explained that I got into the habit of using this method with slide film in my M2 and 35mm lens and a Ricoh GR1 compact as a second body with a 28mm lens. The Ricoh can be set to give aperture priority exposure readings and acts as my light meter.

 

I've used this combination for many years when hillwalking in Scotland and from this experience I now know that on a sunny day out on the hills, using 100 ISO film, I can set speeds of between 125/250 sec at F8.0 or the faster 250/500 at F5.6.

 

The two issues for my mountain landscape photography are depth of field and camera shake. If you have just climbed a three thousand foot mountain from near sea level you tend to be a bit out of breathe or the wind could be blowing strongly in either case a fast shutter speed is advisable. I also tend to look for foreground objects to balance my mountain pictures and so getting near objects sharp is also a consideration.

 

To balance these requirements I focus using the hyperfocal technique using either F5.6 or F8 on my 35mm Summicron. In order to get the highest shutter speed at these settings I set the half stops on the shutter speed dial not the lens. Thanks to all who have replied to my query and I hope that this explains more fully the thinking behind the question.

[el.nino]

Intermediate shutter speeds possible?

 

On the majority of mechanical Leicas, yes, except for between 1/8th and 1/15th.

 

Some caveats: With the M7 it won't work (electro-mechanical shutter control); the M5 supports all intermediate speeds because it has a stepless shutter (and matching lightmeter); whereas the lightmeter in the M6TTL won't work when set on intermediate speeds.

Leica FAQ — M shutter accuracy

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Thanks for the link it covers the subject in detail and confirms the advice in previous posts.

[colin_d]

Unless you're using slides is a half stop going to matter? Unless you want to shoot wide open is a half stop going to matter?!

 

Good, this topic is relevant for me, I use an M5 and shoot mostly slides.

 

Question: Why is this most important for slides? I'm guessing it has something to do with processing, but that's pure non scientific speculation on my behalf.

 

Colin

[lars_bergquist]

Question: Why is this most important for slides? I'm guessing it has something to do with processing, but that's pure non scientific speculation on my behalf.

 

Colin

 

Because unlike negative two-step processes, slide film, being a one-step process, has NO exposure latitude AT ALL.

 

The transparency is a unicate: the piece of coated celluloid you show in the projector, or view on the light table, is the same piece that was in your camera. There are no intermediate steps to correct for exposure mistakes.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[colin_d]

Because unlike negative two-step processes, slide film, being a one-step process, has NO exposure latitude AT ALL.

 

The transparency is a unicate: the piece of coated celluloid you show in the projector, or view on the light table, is the same piece that was in your camera. There are no intermediate steps to correct for exposure mistakes.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

 

cheers Lars, I thought it would be to do with processing without knowing exactly why.

[lars_bergquist]

Right. When people say that a transparency film has this or that amount of exposure latitude, they mean simply -- probably without knowing it -- that THEY subjectively tolerate this or that amount of exposure "play".

 

Technically "correct" exposure is of course one thing. The proof of the picture is in the printing -- and the result is judged by what you are after, imagewise. Lots of people liked to expose Kodachrome a notch under, to get more saturated colurs. Others (fewer of them) did expose a bit over, going for a more desaturated palette. That was of course dangerous, because a blown highlight was blown forever, just as with digital. The M9 is like a M6 with built-in Kodachrome.

 

The old man born when Kodachrome was

[giordano]

Others (fewer of them) did expose a bit over, going for a more desaturated palette. That was of course dangerous, because a blown highlight was blown forever, just as with digital.

 

(a) Not just Kodachrome but colour reversal film in general.

 

( IMHO this was most effective and least dangerous in mist and fog. No bright highlights to worry about, and less saturation gave a more realistic or evocative result. At least it did for printing. Projection was another story: the slides were less dense and therefore seemed too bright on screen. The solution, of course, was to bind a layer of ND gelatine into the mount.

[lars_bergquist]

John, viewing/projection and printing was of course two different things. Because the slide as a printing original was just as much a halfway product, as a black and white negative was. There was a next process step, with adjustments possible.

 

The old Kodachrome man

[aesop]

On 7/3/2010 at 3:21 PM, Kalee said:

Because the speeds are controllled by a cam, you can get intermediate speeds on all M cameras including the M6 but accuracy cannot be guaranteed!

        ...much more accurate (and infinitely more sensible) to set intermediate speeds on the aperture ring - or else be prepared to get beaten up by slide film.

[Michael Geschlecht]

On 7/3/2010 at 1:13 PM, lars_bergquist said:

This is partly true for the old mechanically governed cloth shutters. All speeds are not continuously governed by one cam: there are fast speeds that are cam-regulated, and slow speeds where a delay mechanism comes into play, just as in the screw-thread Leicas, even if there is no longer a separate slow speed dial. These are the speeds where the second curtain cannot be released while the first one is still running, and therefore in principle be released BY the first curtain. Instead the second curtain is held back for a while by a delay mechainsm, even while the first one had already come to a stop. In other words, speeds longer than the shortest flash X-synch speed of 1/50th of a second.

 

The result is that old manuals declared that in between speeds of 1 -- 1/8, between 1/15 and 1/30 and faster than 1/60 could be set. This as far as I know is still true for the MP. The shutter of the M7 is of course electronically controlled, steplessly while on auto, but only in whole steps on manual. -- M8 and M9 shutters have halfway detents between all speeds, and very useful they are.

 

The old man from the Age of the Compur Shutter

Hello Everybody,

To add to Lars Bergquist's insightful Post about intermediate shutter speeds (Lars unfortunately died a number of years ago.) is this note by me about intermediate speeds with M5's:

M5's have a slightly different system where the ONLY intermediate shutter speeds that are NOT usable are the space between the "dot" next to the "30" and the "30".

And the space between "1/2 Second" & "1 Second".

All other intermediate speeds between "1/2" & "1/1000" on the M5 are usable. The whole speeds such as "1/60" are mechanically visible in the range/viewfinder window.

Settings of "1 Second" & longer are also mechanically visible in the range/viewfinder window. The durations visible are for using the light meter to determine exposure times.

The actual exposures made at "1 Second" and longer are made by depressing the shutter button with a cable release & estimating the time (Such as "15 FULL Seconds".) and then releasing the cable release.

Since the "1 Second" (Yes) and longer exposures of an M5 are all being made in the "B" mode.

By the way, The "dot" setting of an M5 is the same accurate "1/50" that the "lightening bolt" "1/50" is on other "M" film cameras.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited March 22, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[TomB_tx]

Just to complete the picture:

The M4 that I bought in 1968 included an insert (dated 7/67) in its Instructions booklet which said: 

"Intermediate shutter speeds may be set between the click-stop settings, except between 1/8sec. and 1/15sec., and between 1/30sec. and 1/60sec.."

The original text in the Instructions said: "Intermediate shutter speeds may be set between the click-stop settings, except between 1/4 and 1/8 sec."

Sounds like the shutter timing mechanism went through some evolution over the years, which should be expected.

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Hallo,

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