When it rains, it pours!

[faraz]

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Seems like you are jumping to some extreme conclusions here with very limited data on hand. That is not very ethical.

 

Actually, when I placed myself on a wait list with a dealer here in the good ole USA, I asked him if there was any issue if I did not buy from him. His response was an unequivocal no since he said he had enough demand and people on the list who would buy the camera. Hence he did not need a deposit. What is wrong then with Zlatkob placing an order with multiple dealers, none of whom care whether he buys from them or not as someone will. How is that unethical? Who exactly is the injured party?

 

It appears he is more than willing to generalize an entire continent and cast them as unethical based on his convoluted sense of self righteousness. The original accusation of unethical behavior was baseless and I thought one couldn't dig a deeper hole, but it looks like he definitely outdid himself by casting entire north america has having flexible morals. Talk about superiority complex.

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[Guest hC-Bp]

It appears he is more than willing to generalize an entire continent and cast them as unethical based on his convoluted sense of self righteousness. The original accusation of unethical behavior was baseless and I thought one couldn't dig a deeper hole, but it looks like he definitely outdid himself by casting entire north america has having flexible morals. Talk about superiority complex.

 

Faraz, Stan, Zlatkob and other North American friends. This man is an island. He is not reflective of leicaphiles this side of the pond in his tarring of one region in a sweeping brush. Might I suggest that any accusatory outpourings of this nature, from him or other 'superior' posters, are merely a reflection of their own true nature/state of mind rather than an accurate assessment of the accused. Apply salt when reading!

 

In the words of the man himself "off to the ignore list with you" You can choose to take part in this playground or not.

 

This said, Bill and several other 'elder statesman' of this forum have done some incredibly good work recently with the LUF AICR book. It's regretable that day to day interaction like this undermines the positive PR of the project. Ambassador? Perhaps not.

 

Back to the original point - in my view it's simply a case of Intention. If one is clear with the dealer, and they are in agreement, an expression of interest is not a contract to purchase. Place a deposit by all means if this is the case. Agree that multiple entries on waiting lists could potentially create a false economy, but only if intentions are unclear. Leica has more than enough experience in supply and demand. Let's leave the professionals to it, and invite the suburban soapboxers to do same.

 

Phil

from the wilds of Waterford, Eire

[Julian Thompson]

Let's be honest, the way it should be done is a centralised waiting list, held at the appropriate country distributor. Every individual calls their dealer and gets a ticket number back from the Leica concessionaire. Each camera is therefore being manufactured as a special order, and, at least in the UK, that would enable non refundable deposits to be taken. (Or for those of us with trust relationships with our dealers firm commitments to be made - see Bill's definition of firm commitment earlier!) This would be, largely, end of problem.

 

As a retailler myself I find the attitudes not surprising (and I'm not judging, only reacting) in terms of a definite lack of loyalty to any particular dealer. I personally only use one dealer and get many great benefits from that relationship but the general behaviour of clients since the internet has definitely changed away from that. Boundaries have gone and hard won relationships over years are eroding. At the same time, of course, new relationships are made too, but they are certainly less personal, and given the distances often involved, sometimes less useful practically.

 

Make no mistake, any dealer who tells you he 'doesn't care' that you just took your name of a waiting list because you ordered in triplicate or whatever is:

 

a) Lying - he just lost a margin off a £5k piece - you just took bread literally off his table. If everyone stayed on his list until all orders were filled he would make more money.

 

Clever - once you've bought the camera from elsewhere the dealer who has had the phantom order pulled has two choices. One is to be grumpy and annoyed which will for sure mean you'll never go back again, and the other is to grit his teeth and pat you on the back, congratulating you for lining the pockets of another dealer. He may then see you again for some other sales later.

 

I do therefore have to stick my head above the parapit and side with Bill in terms of ethics in an ideal world. It would be much nicer if all customers would honour all commitments. Sadly, for many reasons that can't happen and won't happen.

 

However, at the end of the day, it must be the ordering system that is at fault in allowing the situation to be uncontrolled like that, because we know the customer is always right, and there it must end.

[bill]

Thank you all for your inputs, particularly those who have taken the time to post a cogent and considered response instead of knee-jerk bandwagon jumping. This thread has been an eye-opener for me. Regards, Bill

[Nikkor AIS]

Way to go Bill, now you've managed to insult everyone by intimating that you usually get a knee-jerk reaction from us bandwagoners . What has been an eye-opener for me is that you have been exposed for what you are. Is your last post an idea of an apology, and being the mindless knee jerks that we are, we are supposed to accept it?

 

Good Day Sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

R.E.M Bandwagon lyrics

 

Come on aboard, I promise you you won't hurt the horse

We treat him well, we feed him well

There's lots of room for you on the bandwagon...

 

 

 

Gregory

[pop]

have been exposed for what you are

 

I sense a certain symmetry in that statement.

[andybarton]

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OK. Let's call it a day on slinging insults to each other across the Atlantic.

[shard]

I am new to the forum.

 

I travel alot for work and I have personally been to Leica dealers in the US, Europe, Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, Malaysia, Singapore and Australia hoping to be able to find a M9 that I can buy off the shelf. Don't laugh, I am an optimist. Until now, I was never in one place long enough to make a reservation so I never bothered.

 

When I finally did get some time off from traveling, I made a reservation and got my M9 after waiting only 2 weeks. I did not have to pay a higher price and I did not get it off eBay. I got it from a Leica dealer in Osaka, Japan.

 

So what did I do?

 

I went to a shop, I expressed my interest in the M9 and asked how long is the waiting list. I was told 4 to 6 months, possibly longer. I was willing to accept the wait and I insisted on leaving a deposit to show my sincerity and because I wanted them to hold it for me in case I am off traveling again when it arrives.

 

I did not have a color preference and I also placed an order for all the accessories (lens, spare battery, strap, bag etc) I will need. I also told the shop that even if the accessories arrive before the M9, I will be more than happy to buy them first because ultimately I will own a M9.

 

Two weeks later, I got a call to collect my M9, I was shocked and thought that they had made a mistake. The shop assured me that there was no mistake and I am now the happy owner of a gray M9.

 

So what happened to the ultra long waiting list?

 

Most shops will prefer to grow their customer base as compared to a one off sale. They want to start a long and lasting relationship with their customers and hopefully get to do business with the customer for years to come.

 

With the M9, most people will buy it where ever it is available and probably never patronize that shop again. Most shops know this and it is very obvious (unless you are regular) if you go in and ask to reserve a M9 and nothing else.

 

If you show that you are going to be a returning customer, they may give you priority.

 

Most people also put their names down at multiple shops and some even do it in different cities, countries and continents. The shops also know this. They don't like it but they can't do anything about it and to be honest their waiting list is long enough at the moment that this is not a problem.

 

If you offer to leave a deposit, they know you are serious in buying from them and this will put you above all the others that just leave their names.

 

Most people have a color preference, black seems to be the flavor of the month. Everyone I know wants a black M9.

 

If you don't have a preference, you will get the color that is less popular but it also means you get your M9 faster than the rest.

 

I have now placed an order for my backup M9 (told them no rush) and I have just been informed that my Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 ASPH has just arrived. It has not even been 3 weeks yet.

 

At the end of the day, I may have been really lucky but I feel that it is a two way street, in this day and age where dealers have to compete globally instead of locally it makes a difference to show some loyalty and sincerity.

[GarethC]

At least two Canadian by my count. Perhaps a continental divide thing.

 

Jeff

 

Perhaps Jeff, but originally from the UK so where does that put me lol.

 

In my opinion Bill, absolutely disgraceful thing to say, the arrogance of just saying that. You hardly have a meaningful sample size to draw any conclusions which makes it prejudice in my view.

[sunil]

Faraz, Stan, Zlatkob and other North American friends. This man is an island. He is not reflective of leicaphiles this side of the pond in his tarring of one region in a sweeping brush. Might I suggest that any accusatory outpourings of this nature, from him or other 'superior' posters, are merely a reflection of their own true nature/state of mind rather than an accurate assessment of the accused. Apply salt when reading!

 

I for one must admit that I quite enjoy reading the differences of opinion expressed on this forum. There are many times I agree with Bill's assessment on a variety of subjects and others when I do not. At the very least he is provocative and entices participation from otherwise "armchair lurkers" like me. A lot of what makes a forum interesting is the variety of opinions expressed. So as the French would say - "Vive la difference"

[GarethC]

Thank you all for your inputs, particularly those who have taken the time to post a cogent and considered response instead of knee-jerk bandwagon jumping. This thread has been an eye-opener for me. Regards, Bill

 

Prat.

[Viv]

This thread has, in several ways, exposed some of the less attractive facets of human nature.

 

I can only wholeheartedly support Shard in what he says; a beacon of good sense in an ocean of prejudiced inanity.

 

Now, if only I could find a wrist strap and a spare battery for my M9 ...

[jaapv]

Shard is right. I do business with two or three reputable dealers. So I bought my M9 (one of the very first) with ffordes because of the Passport Guaranty who managed to deliver within a few days and then, even before I had taken delivery, KameraExpress called me and said they had an M9 if I wanted it, without me being on any list. So it is more effective to be a trustworthy customer than to get on a number of lists.

[Peter Lea]

Well, I'm English and live in England, and am willing to incur Bill's scorn and say I don't altogether agree with him. I think the key element is the relationship you have with one (or more) dealers. I would not decline to take something I'm on the waiting list for at my small local dealer; but would not be concerned about doing so at a large London dealer.

 

When I was waiting for my M9 (having placed the order with my SLD), one London dealer actually offered to put me on his waiting list. When I replied that I was on one already, he said "That's OK, you can always not take it when it comes up." I declined his offer, but it's clear that not every customer - or dealer - thinks this practice is reprehensible or unethical.

 

Peter

[Susapix]

So @Shard bribed his way to the top of a wait list?

Disgraceful!

:-)