lct Posted June 23, 2010 Share #21 Posted June 23, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) As much as i like my Leica lenses, i would never use a Leica digital body for my pro needs (legal photography). Neither my dear Epsons needless to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2010 Posted June 23, 2010 Hi lct, Take a look here Will Leica ever embrace the digital age?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted June 23, 2010 Share #22 Posted June 23, 2010 If I turned Pro... The first thing I would do is buy a second body. This is true no matter what brand my primary body was. I could not risk the alternative, the loss of a income. Exactly why I bought the second R8/DMR. Even if the camera is 100% reliable in normal use I can't always prevent the theft, accident or personal stupidity that would make a camera unusable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted June 23, 2010 Share #23 Posted June 23, 2010 Meanwhile Leica film cameras keep on working perfectly. I know plenty of pros have perennial and ongoing issues with cameras from other manufacturers. The reason seems to be the unreliability inherent in all computer-based digital products. They may be brilliant in many ways, but they are just not built to last. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 23, 2010 Share #24 Posted June 23, 2010 The future of Leica is in amateurs' hands as they are the main source of income for the company. If you're wanting to use any Leica on assignment, you need at least 2 bodies or take a Canon/Nikon - its the way of modern Leica and it ain't gonna change. The days of the trusty mechanical M are well behind us now. I guaranteed more doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men own more M9's that any Pros and if they have an issue, they just buy another while one is in for repair. The company will continue without support for Pros, like it or not - of course, I don't, but its the way it is, sadly. Hi There Kristian I'm going to take issue on the principle of this one. I'm new to Leica, but I did arrive before digital (just). I remember clearly going into a Leica dealership in London and looking at all the secondhand M6 and M7 (and older) bodies - they were pristine . . . all of them. I can remember thinking - WOW they must make these fantastically well if they're in such good condition secondhand. 5 years on, my (not very well used) M7 is looking decidedly tired, the M9's are already looking well used, and looking at a batch of secondhand M8's most of them had obviously been used as well. The truth is that those M6 and M7 cameras had simply been sitting on shelves and desks, largely unused. Whereas the digital cameras today (whether by pro or amateurs) are getting taken around the world and used. I reckon you need 2 of ANY body if you're doing any serious work - on the other hand, I've taken M9 and M8 bodies to hot and dusty places where they've been splashed liberally, sweated on, dusted and occasionally dropped. They've also been dropped in the snow, rained on and even coated in mud. None of which seems to have caused any problems. As for 'support for pros' it seems to me that over the last few years turnaround times at Solms have gone from something like 6 weeks to something more like 6 days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted June 23, 2010 Share #25 Posted June 23, 2010 Meanwhile Leica film cameras keep on working perfectly. I know plenty of pros have perennial and ongoing issues with cameras from other manufacturers. The reason seems to be the unreliability inherent in all computer-based digital products. They may be brilliant in many ways, but they are just not built to last. I'm betting that most of the ongoing issues are with....Canon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted June 23, 2010 Share #26 Posted June 23, 2010 As for 'support for pros' it seems to me that over the last few years turnaround times at Solms have gone from something like 6 weeks to something more like 6 days. On the other hand I had a Tri-Elmar (MATE) that took 12 weeks to return from Solms. I just got it back. Oh, my back up body is a M7. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
therefromhere Posted June 24, 2010 Share #27 Posted June 24, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) So... I'm an amateur and saved up 2 years to buy the M8.2, thinking it was perfect for my needs (and desires). I have no problem at all with any of the eye-candy-type comments, I could have saved money and bought a Nikon/Canon/etc. But I wanted a DRF, I love Leica, and the size/quality couldn't be beat. Unfortunately, my M8.2 has been nothing but problems. Dead pixels, lines across the images, etc. I travel a lot for work and am always away from home. Fortunately, I've been in one spot for a while and could sent my camera to Solms for repair. The local dealer (who didn't sell me the camera) has been fantastic. We shipped the body off and 4 weeks later it came back with the SAME problems but in different locations on the images. We shipped it off again and 4 weeks later the camera won't even properly turn on (SD CARD FULL error). Clearly Solms is NOT checking their work prior to sending serviced parts back to owners. So... 3 months of life in beautiful Taiwan with no camera (this isn't actually true - I broke down and bought an Oly EP2 to hold me over). Leica Customer Service has no suggestions for what to do other than send the camera in for repair (again). Unfortunately, I'm about to start traveling and cannot wait 4 weeks for the turn-around time. Here is the letter to Leica: "Hello Ursula. I have given some thought to your suggestion that we send my M8.2 back to Solms for repair (3rd try, following the previous failed 2 repairs). Unfortunately, I cannot agree to this. I am an amateur photographer who travels a lot for a living. I have always wanted an M and saved up 2 years to buy the M8.2 and the 35 Summarit. Currently, I have been saving up to buy a new 50 Summilux. This is a lot of money for me and I have been proud to take (incredible) photos with your equipment. However, I cannot be without my investment and treasure any longer. My experience shows that Leica does not check serviced products prior to return to their owner. This is sad and unfortunate. Further, I have lost faith in Leica's ability to repair this particular M8.2. I sincerely believe (or want to believe) that Leica makes the best lenses and cameras, but feel I have been unfortunate to have gotten one of the few "bad eggs". Ursula, please discuss this with your superiors. This particular M8.2 with s/n 355xxxx is a problem that needs a quick and final solution. I am sorry but must insist that my camera be replaced immediately. I am willing to send this back to you, but I do not want it returned to me. You either need to refund my investment or give me a new camera body. I am very sorry to be firm. I'm sure that under any other circumstances we would have a wonderful conversation about life and photography. Regards," I will post the response here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennB Posted June 24, 2010 Share #28 Posted June 24, 2010 I'm betting that most of the ongoing issues are with....Canon? Just curious, Why do you say this ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted June 24, 2010 Share #29 Posted June 24, 2010 I bought an M9 a couple of months ago. The second day, the SD card reader went down. The camera was returned to Germany, but my dealer in Toronto got me a loaner. Shortly after the camera was sent back, the brightline preview lever fell off without my even noticing it. (I never use it -- they are a placebo for beginners.) The part was sent up and my dealer had it put it put one in a single day. Right now I am working on a book on Cuba, and there is no way I would change to any digital camera. I am working with Mamiya 6, Noblex and Rollei TLR. All with backups. It would be a lot easier not carrying hundreds of rolls of film, which increasingly perplex the customs people ("what is this?), but I have a certain sense of security that things will work, plus no security goon can scroll through my computer. Geoffrey James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted June 24, 2010 Share #30 Posted June 24, 2010 I don't understand why a legitimate complaint about a camera not working has to be embellished with snide remarks about those of us who are amateurs. I gathered that the snide remark wasn't about all amateurs, but about those for whom the brand is "just eye candy". I haven't had any problems with the M9, but I'm puzzled by some design decisions that seem to be aimed at a very leisurely sort of photography and a very casual sort of photographer. After decades of building cameras with frame counters, someone thought it would be a good idea to remove the frame counter and put it on a screen that requires a button press. For the serious photographer, little details like the frames available, the ISO setting and the exposure compensation setting are often mission-critical. But the M9 puts these a little out-of-the-way, as if they are distractions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ccmsosse Posted June 24, 2010 Share #31 Posted June 24, 2010 The future of Leica is in amateurs' hands as they are the main source of income for the company.....I guaranteed more doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men own more M9's that any Pros and if they have an issue, they just buy another while one is in for repair. The company will continue without support for Pros, like it or not - of course, I don't, but its the way it is, sadly. I am amazed how some members this forum come to quick conclusions ... "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men own more M9's that any Pros". Being a doctor myself, I guess I "... just buy another while one is in for repair...". I wish I could and it would be that easy. On the bright side the comment does imply that "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men" keep Leica in business with their buying power .... or maybe there are simply more "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men" on this planet than pros??? If I spent 7 grand for a M9, I want it to be perfect - period - pro or not. What is up with the judgement on this forum. I am not a pro, I love taking photos, I was stupid enough to finally sell my Olympus and buy a Leica - I guess I am guilty as charged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted June 24, 2010 Share #32 Posted June 24, 2010 What is up with the judgement on this forum. The fact that many doctors/dentists/lawyers buy the cameras is certainly good for the company, probably even essential. However, if a camera is actually designed, built and serviced to meet the needs of amateurs who love photography (or cameras), then it may fail to meet the needs of pro photographers. Whereas, if a camera is designed, built and serviced to meet the needs of pro photographers, then it is very likely to meet or exceed the needs of amateurs -- and make them happy too. This is likely to be the case with other products too, from musical instruments to cooking tools to sporting goods. I suspect that doctors/dentists/lawyers also buy Canon's and Nikon's most expensive "pro" cameras, but if those cameras were designed, built and serviced with those buyers primarily in mind, they would probably not be well-suited to the heavy usage, once-in-a-lifetime situations and extreme environments that some pros require of them. When people's incomes and reputations ride on a product, they are not going to tolerate too much failure or too many annoyances. Thus, pro photographers may be understandably saddened and discouraged if they come to perceive that a camera is really not intended to meet their needs, while amateurs will be understandably satisfied if the very same camera gives them a feeling of old-world craftsmanship and some beautiful photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted June 24, 2010 Share #33 Posted June 24, 2010 I'm betting that most of the ongoing issues are with....Canon? How did you guess? Some of them are even new. Leica is hardly alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotomiguel Posted June 24, 2010 Share #34 Posted June 24, 2010 If I spent 7 grand for a M9, I want it to be perfect - period - pro or not. What is up with the judgement on this forum. I am not a pro, I love taking photos, I was stupid enough to finally sell my Olympus and buy a Leica - I guess I am guilty as charged. Even when I don't earn as much as a Doctor and I have to save a lot to afford an M9 , I don't find it expensive at all. The difference with the M9 and another cameras is that you get an incredible joy when you use it. The difference between a amateur and a pro is that the pro needs a second body. It doesn't matter which camera he/she uses. So if you are amateur, you just need 7 grand (doctor or waiter) and if you are pro, you need 14 grand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted June 24, 2010 Share #35 Posted June 24, 2010 Just curious, Why do you say this ? I used Canon Pro gear for several years and while I believe their service to be the best, I had to use it far too often - quality control ain't their strongest attribute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted June 24, 2010 Share #36 Posted June 24, 2010 I am amazed how some members this forum come to quick conclusions ... "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men own more M9's that any Pros". Being a doctor myself, I guess I "... just buy another while one is in for repair...". I wish I could and it would be that easy. On the bright side the comment does imply that "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men" keep Leica in business with their buying power .... or maybe there are simply more "doctors/dentists/lawyers and business men" on this planet than pros??? If I spent 7 grand for a M9, I want it to be perfect - period - pro or not. What is up with the judgement on this forum. I am not a pro, I love taking photos, I was stupid enough to finally sell my Olympus and buy a Leica - I guess I am guilty as charged. No judgment being passed here I am simply stating a fact. Most pros cannot justify a Leica M9 in their kit. No need to take offense, but the fact is that Pros are a much smaller percentage of M9 buyers. What reviews are you reading from Pro's shooting the M9? The amateur and Pro have the same rights to have their M9 function to spec, but it is definitely more frustrating and detrimental to Pros should their camera fail on a job, compared to a leisurely outing. Honestly, I wish I wasn't a Pro, cause then i could join the amateur crowd and actually enjoy shooting my M for everything I shoot. Unfortunately for me, the M9 doesn't suit 90% of the work I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted June 24, 2010 Share #37 Posted June 24, 2010 At the end of the day everyone is running around calling themselves 'photographers' so it really doesn't matter. You pay $7000 or $700 for a camera, Leica or not, it should work and the service 'should' reflect what you pay for it, whatever your status may be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted June 24, 2010 Share #38 Posted June 24, 2010 I disagree with your comment. I guess that the percentage of Leica customers who are professional photographers is higher than with Canon of Nikon-simple because everyone I know owns a Canon or Nikon but none is professional. I suppose that the market share of Leica within prof photogs is minor but even worse for the common market. Further the mind-set of the leica amateurs is more demanding compared to Canon and Nikon user as most of the Leica users are professionals in some fields even if not as photographers. (Well, might sound arrogant but in my pov is the straight fact.) Regards Steve They weren't snide remarks (at least mine weren't). Only highlighting the fact that Leica's majority of customers come under the 'amateur' banner with only a small % or pros and most importantly a small number of pros (especially compared to Canon/Nikon) and thus the service standards reflect this, regardless of the cost of the camera, unfortunately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted June 24, 2010 Share #39 Posted June 24, 2010 There is another point I would like to add. Leica is often disgraced as collectors cameras but actually everyone I know who owns one loves to shoot and uses it regularly. Contrary almost everyone I know who owns a Canon or Nikon can hardly handle it besides the auto mode and uses it only at little Eric's birthday party or the final soccer match at the end of the season. Their move from anaolg to digital was clearly sunk cost only. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted June 24, 2010 Share #40 Posted June 24, 2010 I disagree with your comment. I guess that the percentage of Leica customers who are professional photographers is higher than with Canon of Nikon-simple because everyone I know owns a Canon or Nikon but none is professional. I suppose that the market share of Leica within prof photogs is minor but even worse for the common market. Further the mind-set of the leica amateurs is more demanding compared to Canon and Nikon user as most of the Leica users are professionals in some fields even if not as photographers. (Well, might sound arrogant but in my pov is the straight fact.) Regards Steve Steve, regardless of percentages, the numbers are more important and there are very few Leica M9 photographers out there in comparison. I think Leica amateurs used to be more demanding but digital has opened up the scrutiny level across he board with pixel peeping, so i believe this no longer to be the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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