All that talk about the X1s AF...

[RichardM8]

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I just joined this forum, seems a great place to hang out Leica.

 

Just like any other forum, site or review where the X1 is involved there is a lot of talk and complaints about the AF performance of the X1. Remarks like 'Leica should fix this with the next firmware update' seems to be the most common hope for a solution.

 

I think this will not be the case and here's my attempt to shed some more light on the AF of the X1. Pls feel free to shoot or add anything.

 

The AF performance of the X1 is a direct consequence from the sensor choice. Leica picked the 12 MP Sony APS-C sensor for the best possible IQ and high ISO performance. This sensor is developed for use in a DSLR. By itself no problem but... it works with a low(ish) internal frame rate of 24 f/ps. Compact camera's use contrast AF adjusting the focus back'n forth by rapidly comparing frames from the sensor until focus is achieved. The frame-rate of the sensor is a decisive factor for AF speed. Most other compacts use sensors specifically designed for their purpose in a compact with much higher frame-rates. The Panny GF1 and Olly E-Px models - to which the X1 is compared to a lot - use sensors with no less than 60 f/ps. These cameras will always have much faster AF.

 

When Leica picked the Sony sensor they really knew they had a challenge in the AF department. I think Leica deserves praise for the bold choice for this this sensor as their goal was the best possible IQ in a small & light package. Ricoh did the same with their 50mm A12 module for the GXR that - very likely - uses the same sensor. With the same AF challenges as a result. Both Ricoh and Leica are companies that are not afraid to step off the beaten track.

 

So the AF performance of the X1 is primarily hardware related and therefore cannot be improved through the firmware. Of course, with more efficient programming it might be possible to squeeze out a bit more speed but it will be only a little, if any. Don't expect any miracles here.

 

Leica made some very deliberate choices with the design of the X1. It isn't this way 'cos this is what they got by surprise when they threw some parts together. There is very thorough thinking behind it. The X1 is not a mass volume camera designed to please and appeal to as much people as possible. That is the territory of the big boys with cameras like the GF1 and E-Px. Leica does not have the ambition nor the possibility to compete in that arena (besides the Leica labelled Panny's).

 

The X1 is very much a niche product. Aimed at a very specific audience that knows its limitations and appreciates its strengths. A focussed (heheheh...) camera that delivers true Leica image quality in a light and compact package that is errrmmm.... 'somewhat affordable' in Leica terms.

 

Richard.

[leicashot]

Yes, whoever buys this camera cannot expect the world from it's AF system. The way I see it is that for now it's my M9 substitute and it autofocuses at a similar speed at which I focus and recompose a Leica M8/9, so its fine in my book. If people want speed they need to go with a DSLR.

 

Preempting action, pre-focusing and zone focusing are techniques that are a necessity for any kind of action with this camera, just like Leica M's. So people comparing this to other high speed cameras shouldn't be buying the X1 anyway.

 

If they want size/quality they need to compromise. It's really that simple.

[dfritzsche]

after using the x1 for a few weeks now. The slow AF is not a big issue for me, for i am used to take photos with viewfinder camera for ages. My main concern is the slow manual focus and the lost of the preset manual focus value after the standby. I think this can be fixed by a firmware update. A carefully preset X1, manual focus and aperture/speed settings according to the circumstances is as fast as possible. But to support the manual work some fixes in the firmware would be fine. In addition to the above said a DOF scale should be fine and a continues lightmeter display to check the lighting very fast, would be fine.

[RichardM8]

My main concern is the slow manual focus and the lost of the preset manual focus value after the standby. I think this can be fixed by a firmware update.

 

Agree, this type of things could - and should - be fixed in the firmware. Just as the useless implementation of the live histogram. And the option to record DNGs only. But I am pretty confident we'll get this at some point.

[Ecaton]

after using the x1 for a few weeks now. The slow AF is not a big issue for me, for i am used to take photos with viewfinder camera for ages. My main concern is the slow manual focus and the lost of the preset manual focus value after the standby. I think this can be fixed by a firmware update. A carefully preset X1, manual focus and aperture/speed settings according to the circumstances is as fast as possible. But to support the manual work some fixes in the firmware would be fine. In addition to the above said a DOF scale should be fine and a continues lightmeter display to check the lighting very fast, would be fine.

 

+1

[Guest stnami]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

[stephen.w]

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Apart from the inadequate distance scale and the focusing distance being reset when the camera goes into standby, there is one further problem that i have yet to see mentioned on the forum: typically when using the camera zone focused, one would choose an aperture somewhere between f5.6 and f16, but with the X1, the lens doesn't stop down to the chosen stop straight away - but only on the half press of the shutter. This creates an appreciable lag. If I am missing something here, please point it out, but otherwise I think that my X1 is on borrowed time.

[jsrockit]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

 

blah, blah,

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[dfritzsche]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

 

the x1 is my first leica and i do not care for leica hype. My former viewfinder cameras were an Agfa Isolette 6x6cm and Agfa Retina, from this point of view i started with nearly the same feeling into the digital world. And i was able to get an IQ which is comparable to my old anlog cameras. You may complain the high price, the lack of a zoom and the slow aperture. I bought it knowing all this, only due to the vintage feeling i had, when i touched the x1. I do not eat at MacDonalds and other fastfood restaurants, i love slowfood. So i like the x1 and need no excuses for this decision, for it was my own and done with clear mind. Normally everybody buying such an expensive device should know what he is doing. I think you will not been betrayed, you get what you deserved. regards Dieter

[leicashot]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

 

excuse from someone who usually can't afford such a camera, or has never used it.

[Guest stnami]

Wrong on both counts leicashot .......... jockstrap nice to see an improvement in your verbal capacity

 

ps nice to see a new batch of trench warfare combatants

[Guest badbob]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

 

It could be that, if the purchaser were really expecting more, and switched to Sour Grapes upon realizing they were not going to get what they wanted. But for the realists here, who saw an opportunity to get DSLR (or better) quality in a really compact camera, accepting the compromises, not a bad deal at all.

 

When I first held the camera I thought "Wow - this is really beautiful - and it takes photos too" (that was the Leicaphile in me). But I didn't spend $2k to get a Leica thrill, since I (like most X1 buyers) have had Leicas before, and the thrill is old news by now. I expected exactly what I got - a high-performing camera re: image quality, a low-performing camera re: quickness, and a very compact size. That's worth $2k, and the Leica veneer is a small bonus. Small because I care a little, and nobody else I know cares at all.

[Guest badbob]

....there is a lot of talk and complaints about the AF performance of the X1. Remarks like 'Leica should fix this with the next firmware update' seems to be the most common hope for a solution.

I think this will not be the case and here's my attempt to shed some more light on the AF of the X1. Pls feel free to shoot or add anything.

 

I hope there won't be a backlash of X1 owners who feel cheated when they realize there isn't even a possible fix for their AF slowness. I do think there are partial fixes possible for new editions of the X1, using new technology. Maybe by the time those arrive, they will also be able to address AF with low-contrast subjects, and/or provide a quicker way to toggle one-point and spot focus.

[h00ligan]

Apart from the inadequate distance scale and the focusing distance being reset when the camera goes into standby, there is one further problem that i have yet to see mentioned on the forum: typically when using the camera zone focused, one would choose an aperture somewhere between f5.6 and f16, but with the X1, the lens doesn't stop down to the chosen stop straight away - but only on the half press of the shutter. This creates an appreciable lag. If I am missing something here, please point it out, but otherwise I think that my X1 is on borrowed time.

 

 

That wasn't my experience using zone @ 5.6 the other day.. i'll double check and get back to you, but the only lag i saw was in write time between shots. I may be wrong, will double check.

 

edit - you are correct.. i guess i was walking around holding a half press.. that is pretty annoying.

[jsrockit]

jockstrap nice to see an improvement in your verbal capacity

 

I've missed you stunod... thanks for brightening up the place again with your wonderful personality.

[artyca]

RichardX1, thanks for the enlightening explanation regarding the AF speed vs sensor. The slow AF is not really an issue for me personally and if it's more hardware related than software, then I guess i'll have to live with it and change my photographic technique to accomodate the X1. No big issue for me...

[Guest Chris M]

Hey all of you X1 owners that are bummed out with the auto focus etc..... do what I did, order 2 of the VLUX 20's one for your wife and one for you. The auto focus every thing on the LEICA VLUX 20 SMOKES!! , and its final out put picture quality for up to A4 sized prints on an epson 2400 (is as good) or better than the (DLUX 4) IMHO. But I no everybody views things differently. So any how I just love my X1 THE WAY IT IS:)

 

CHRIS M

[ravinj]

leicaphile excuses for a product that was partially completed and released.........ideal for alpha testers or exm8 owners who are after a deʒa vy experience

 

AF is definitely "slow", but most people who plunked down $2k to get the X1 probably knew what they were getting into: they wanted the best image quality available today in a compact package. AF speed was secondary. This is what the X1 delivers. No more, no less. And, looking at the output that X1 produces, even non-leicaphiles like me are impressed.

[h00ligan]

I think the issue with slow goes deeper than just af, it's EVERYTHING. Slow af could be ok, if one could reasonably snap in continuous..but write times are slow and buffer speed as well. I also think it's one thing to read 'hey it's slow' or even see a speed test video and a completely different one to miss shots cam in hand. At least at first, there's going to be a learning curve for those more used to faster cameras. Add on to those issues the peeling skin, poor battery life( I don't think it's bad), poor battery door and loose dials (again I don't think they are that bad), and a $2000 price tag and the 10% better iq may be overwhelmed. There are also some that will say worse iq is better than a missed shot, especially when speaking in terms of differences only truly seen when heavily cropping or printing big.

 

Af is one core component, but it's not the whole picture of why some have a hard time swallowing the x1, and there are plenty of reasons to wait for an x2.

 

@ chris, I don't think I personally could swallow the price tag for the vlux. There is at least one direct competitor at half the price and a rebranded sister product for the same. I haven't seen anything with the vlux shots that show they offer more than the panasonic version or the Sony rival.

 

@Stephen i have been thinking more about the aperture thing, I suppose it is because there is no ael button so it stays open for exposure reasons?..but then if you were in full manual with iso, ss, ap...why would it need to meter anything other than white balance..which you could also assign. If all four are set do you see the same behavior? I'm guessing so, I'll test it.

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[DRabbit]

The slow AF doesn't bother me... But Edward, you raise a good point. I find the lack of AEL button quite a bit frustrating.

 

The X1 takes great photos in a small package and I don't at all regret the purchase - quite the opposite. I do however find some of the handling a bit clunky. Lack of AEL is one such example.